Since 2016, this has been the conundrum of caring Americans. What to do about those who jump on Trump's train of grievance and indecency?
As an introvert, my instinct is to shun them. But of course we have unavoidable interactions. My next instinct is to treat magas as I treat everyone else, with respect for their humanity and with politeness ... unless their behavior does not reciprocate that, as in the aggressive displays against those who wore/wear masks to prevent the spread of a deadly virus.
And yet. While I reach for that civil behavior, I am still free to judge their beliefs. And I hold that anyone who supports an overt racist diminishes their own humanity; therefore, I do not respect them as fellow humans, I merely tolerate them. I don't have to listen to or place value in their barking.
But tolerance is fair and civil, is it not, Norm? This is as far as I am willing to go.
I have struggled with your "last" point about fundamentally decent people who have supported and still support Trump. It has been hard to understand. The best I have come up with is that too many people have very parochial worlds. If something bad happens in their community, their world, they will be there to help. But, when it happens outside their buble, it somehow is not "real." Maybe there is so much of it they have built up immunity to such shocking news.
I think your analysis, Don, explains much of what I see in my "decent" MAGA acquaintances, friends, and family. The other portion is ignorance. They truly don't realize Fox is shoveling total shit down their throats.
I do know some and I also struggle with "fundamentally decent people" supporting this administration. I think it is because some of their concerns are being answered. I can only hope these "decents" realize what price is being paid for the answers to some of their concerns.
I think what you say about the narrowness of some people’s worlds is part of it. The rest is lack of empathy. Now here’s a true story. My friend Carol went to help out after Hurricane Katrina & stayed for 6 weeks. It so happened we were in Wolfeboro NH where local GOP women were meeting (friends with one of her sisters) & she dropped in to tell them about it. The women’s response? “You should be blessed.” Then we drove a short way down the road to a meeting of the next town’s Democrats. She gave the same account. People were literally in tears: “Oh those poor people—how can we help them?” The contrast was stark, & it was all based on empathy.
Maybe. Or maybe we are saying the same thing. Many of the people I know are very empathetic when it comes to people in their immediate community but seem almost indifferent when it happens elsewhere.
" . . . voted for Trump but are fundamentally decent people . . . ."
I admire the author, but part company with him here. In my view at this point, those who still support Trump are only "decent people" if they've been completely duped and are still being duped. After the mass pardon of over 1,500 traitors who desecrated the Capitol and assaulted law enforcement en masse, the real "decent people" said, "Enough", and walked away.
We must all as Americans fight this indecency and call it what it is! We can’t allow this to continue. I will fight for our Democracy, as everyone must. Join all upcoming protests!
Norm, I’m grateful for all of your continuous hard work to defend and uphold our Democracy!
I too know people who voted for Trump. They still defend him no matter what he does or says. They still insist he is playing multidimensional chess and the rest of us are playing tic-tac-toe..
I have to disagree with your statement that they are "fundamentally decent". If they are capable of the mental gymnastics required to continue to support this administration, they are no longer fundamentally anything.
'The American people are driven by fairness and decency'
Is this really true?
Can we really say this about a country that elected Donald Trump not once but twice, whose only agenda has ever been cruelty, selfishness and unvarnished racism?
Can we say this about a country that continues to support genocide and apartheid while deporting and villianizing anyone who objects?
Every fascist, militarist regime has been propped up by 'supposedly fundamentally decent people'. At one point are those people responsible for their actions?
There has never been an 'American people'. There is a constant struggle between many different peoples at any given time. Some of those people are indeed 'driven by fairness and decency'. Many are not.
This comment in another Contrarian piece yesterday is more accurate (I was quite surprised to see this piece in The Contrarian tbh) :
'Stop saying, “this isn’t who we are.” What we’re seeing now is what this country has always been: A country that was born in violence and is sustained by violence.'
"Fairness"?! The word is JUSTICE, Norm. Or, in the immortal words of Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster, "Truth, Justice and the American Way".
We should not fail to recognize the heavy hand of White Christian Nationalism tipping the scales of justice, since 6 SCOTUS Justices are zealot true believers (even though 1 of them is Black. I guess the joke will be on him, eventually).
So, "fairness"? OK, but what we need, want and must have is Justice.
As always, a thought provoking article from Norman Ornstein. With very interesting historical examples. But disquieting, I think.
I remember a very interesting discussion of "fairness" by Paul Bloom in his book "The Origins of Good and Evil". My understanding of what I read is that "fairness" is an innate human emotion - but because it is a gut emotional response, "fairness" can get in the way of rational thought. As in the example of the "notch generation". So can policy makers who have good policies that push someone's "it's not fair" button, appeal to reason? Or, "get over yourself, don't begrudge the other guy some help".
You are so right, Norm. The BBB exemplifies a cruelty that surpasses any purported redemptive purpose—economic, political, or social—the provisions supposedly address.
We are animals who respond to threats they think will affect them. But only if they’re aware of them. The overwhelming ignorance of the American people, especially since the educational establishment decided to substitute civics for history, is legion. Why give a damn about civics when you have no idea why it’s important because you’re ignorant about our, and others histories?
Respectfully, this bill is exactly who were are, taken altogether as a country. Voters care about fairness when they feel something is unfair *to them*. Recent experience strongly suggests they couldn't care less about unfairness to others, or at least those outside their tribe. The cruelty is the point, after all. And as for decency, that ship sailed a long time ago (I was going to include a Trump quote here from c. 2016, but there are just so many examples that I literally couldn't decide on just one). Whether it's the 35% or so who actively love what's going on, or equally larger number who simply can't be bothered to pay attention, we are a nation that's become perfectly comfortable with cruelty, unfairness, and indecency.
We still have much to do to gain the attention and trust of ‘middle America.’ I think there’s at least one ‘line of attack’ that can help:
Donald Trump just really, really hates America.
America values honesty, fair play, integrity. As a pathological liar and con man, Trump has never been able to command the ‘respect,’ power, and regal status he craves. He now feels these to be within his reach.
Trump is not out to make America great again. He’s out to make America grovel at his feet.
Americans need to know this. America needs to understand that this is the entirety of Trump’s motivation and his self-dealing end game so that America can stop him.
Since 2016, this has been the conundrum of caring Americans. What to do about those who jump on Trump's train of grievance and indecency?
As an introvert, my instinct is to shun them. But of course we have unavoidable interactions. My next instinct is to treat magas as I treat everyone else, with respect for their humanity and with politeness ... unless their behavior does not reciprocate that, as in the aggressive displays against those who wore/wear masks to prevent the spread of a deadly virus.
And yet. While I reach for that civil behavior, I am still free to judge their beliefs. And I hold that anyone who supports an overt racist diminishes their own humanity; therefore, I do not respect them as fellow humans, I merely tolerate them. I don't have to listen to or place value in their barking.
But tolerance is fair and civil, is it not, Norm? This is as far as I am willing to go.
I have struggled with your "last" point about fundamentally decent people who have supported and still support Trump. It has been hard to understand. The best I have come up with is that too many people have very parochial worlds. If something bad happens in their community, their world, they will be there to help. But, when it happens outside their buble, it somehow is not "real." Maybe there is so much of it they have built up immunity to such shocking news.
I think your analysis, Don, explains much of what I see in my "decent" MAGA acquaintances, friends, and family. The other portion is ignorance. They truly don't realize Fox is shoveling total shit down their throats.
I do know some and I also struggle with "fundamentally decent people" supporting this administration. I think it is because some of their concerns are being answered. I can only hope these "decents" realize what price is being paid for the answers to some of their concerns.
I think what you say about the narrowness of some people’s worlds is part of it. The rest is lack of empathy. Now here’s a true story. My friend Carol went to help out after Hurricane Katrina & stayed for 6 weeks. It so happened we were in Wolfeboro NH where local GOP women were meeting (friends with one of her sisters) & she dropped in to tell them about it. The women’s response? “You should be blessed.” Then we drove a short way down the road to a meeting of the next town’s Democrats. She gave the same account. People were literally in tears: “Oh those poor people—how can we help them?” The contrast was stark, & it was all based on empathy.
Maybe. Or maybe we are saying the same thing. Many of the people I know are very empathetic when it comes to people in their immediate community but seem almost indifferent when it happens elsewhere.
" . . . voted for Trump but are fundamentally decent people . . . ."
I admire the author, but part company with him here. In my view at this point, those who still support Trump are only "decent people" if they've been completely duped and are still being duped. After the mass pardon of over 1,500 traitors who desecrated the Capitol and assaulted law enforcement en masse, the real "decent people" said, "Enough", and walked away.
Decent MAGAts? Not in my book.
We must all as Americans fight this indecency and call it what it is! We can’t allow this to continue. I will fight for our Democracy, as everyone must. Join all upcoming protests!
Norm, I’m grateful for all of your continuous hard work to defend and uphold our Democracy!
I too know people who voted for Trump. They still defend him no matter what he does or says. They still insist he is playing multidimensional chess and the rest of us are playing tic-tac-toe..
I have to disagree with your statement that they are "fundamentally decent". If they are capable of the mental gymnastics required to continue to support this administration, they are no longer fundamentally anything.
They are in a cult.
'The American people are driven by fairness and decency'
Is this really true?
Can we really say this about a country that elected Donald Trump not once but twice, whose only agenda has ever been cruelty, selfishness and unvarnished racism?
Can we say this about a country that continues to support genocide and apartheid while deporting and villianizing anyone who objects?
Every fascist, militarist regime has been propped up by 'supposedly fundamentally decent people'. At one point are those people responsible for their actions?
There has never been an 'American people'. There is a constant struggle between many different peoples at any given time. Some of those people are indeed 'driven by fairness and decency'. Many are not.
This comment in another Contrarian piece yesterday is more accurate (I was quite surprised to see this piece in The Contrarian tbh) :
'Stop saying, “this isn’t who we are.” What we’re seeing now is what this country has always been: A country that was born in violence and is sustained by violence.'
"Fairness"?! The word is JUSTICE, Norm. Or, in the immortal words of Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster, "Truth, Justice and the American Way".
We should not fail to recognize the heavy hand of White Christian Nationalism tipping the scales of justice, since 6 SCOTUS Justices are zealot true believers (even though 1 of them is Black. I guess the joke will be on him, eventually).
So, "fairness"? OK, but what we need, want and must have is Justice.
As always, a thought provoking article from Norman Ornstein. With very interesting historical examples. But disquieting, I think.
I remember a very interesting discussion of "fairness" by Paul Bloom in his book "The Origins of Good and Evil". My understanding of what I read is that "fairness" is an innate human emotion - but because it is a gut emotional response, "fairness" can get in the way of rational thought. As in the example of the "notch generation". So can policy makers who have good policies that push someone's "it's not fair" button, appeal to reason? Or, "get over yourself, don't begrudge the other guy some help".
You are so right, Norm. The BBB exemplifies a cruelty that surpasses any purported redemptive purpose—economic, political, or social—the provisions supposedly address.
We are animals who respond to threats they think will affect them. But only if they’re aware of them. The overwhelming ignorance of the American people, especially since the educational establishment decided to substitute civics for history, is legion. Why give a damn about civics when you have no idea why it’s important because you’re ignorant about our, and others histories?
Respectfully, this bill is exactly who were are, taken altogether as a country. Voters care about fairness when they feel something is unfair *to them*. Recent experience strongly suggests they couldn't care less about unfairness to others, or at least those outside their tribe. The cruelty is the point, after all. And as for decency, that ship sailed a long time ago (I was going to include a Trump quote here from c. 2016, but there are just so many examples that I literally couldn't decide on just one). Whether it's the 35% or so who actively love what's going on, or equally larger number who simply can't be bothered to pay attention, we are a nation that's become perfectly comfortable with cruelty, unfairness, and indecency.
We still have much to do to gain the attention and trust of ‘middle America.’ I think there’s at least one ‘line of attack’ that can help:
Donald Trump just really, really hates America.
America values honesty, fair play, integrity. As a pathological liar and con man, Trump has never been able to command the ‘respect,’ power, and regal status he craves. He now feels these to be within his reach.
Trump is not out to make America great again. He’s out to make America grovel at his feet.
Americans need to know this. America needs to understand that this is the entirety of Trump’s motivation and his self-dealing end game so that America can stop him.
https://open.substack.com/pub/jonthinks/p/donald-trump-hates-america?r=mrvx1&utm_medium=ios