OMG! NO! NOT A Potential Nobel Prize for Trump!!!!!!!
If quite secondarily to Trump's personal financial arrangements with Arab countries, a peace plan for Israel/Palestine were to emerge during this administration it would not by any means offset the cruelty of the dissolution of USAID and his cruelty to his own citizens and migrants transported to concentration camps.
Nobel Prize? Not even a thought should be given to that!
One of the reasons trump won the election was likely the Jewish vote which saw him as an ally of Israel. I think his subsequent behavior seems to indicate that he courted the vote so he could get elected and then do whatever he wants, which is to enrich himself and American business. A lot of voters are beginning to realize that many of this administration's policies are NOT what they voted for. I suspect this is a rude awakening for the Jewish vote.
71% of American Jews voted for Harris in 2024 vs 26% who voted for Trump. Among Muslim Americans, a much higher percentage voted for Trump; over 40% and a plurality.
He is going to be a lot worse for both Israelis and Palestinians than Harris would have been.
The Jewish vote is relatively small compared to the evangelicals, who largely supported Trump. And of the Jewish voters, only the Orthodox minority were solidly behind Trump. Jewish voters tend to vote Democratic.
I'm one of the Jewish voters who would NEVER ever vote for trump. I find the way he now treats Israel to be callous and damaging. This administration continues to show it cannot be trusted or relied upon, by anyone.
“It does not have to be that way—if Israel is willing to change course, end the war in Gaza, and pursue a vision of integration with its Arab neighbors that includes Palestinian rights to security, freedom, and self-determination.”
Is there any realistic indication that Israel is prepared to do this? I don’t see any.
Not under this government. Though a hostage deal may still be possible. But Israel will have elections in the next 18 months and there may be possibilities after that.
You give Biden too much credit about standing up to Israel. He talked a little and withheld the heavy bombs for a few days, but in the end he collaborated and provided the ordnance used to slaughter civilians. He was blind, timid and feckless. There is innocent blood on his hands.
Biden withheld only the 2,000 pound bombs to Israel and begged Netanyahu to protect Palestinians civilians and allow humanitarian aid to enter Gaza. He absolutely is feckless and has Palestinian blood on his hands.
As is typical of Ilan Goldenberg's Substack pieces, this is full of euphemisms and skips over inconvenient facts.
'Israel’s treatment of Palestinian civilians, including not allowing enough aid into Gaza' is a translation of "Israel's total blockade of all humanitarian aid for over two months, with the open intent of starving the population of Gaza". "Not enough" equals "none whatsoever".
"Democratic misalignment with Israel on the Palestinian issue" is a nice way of saying "the abject horror across the Democratic base at the blatant genocidal onslaught by Israel in Gaza, and the increased intensity of apartheid-driven ethnic cleaning in the West Bank". Tens of thousands of murdered Palestinian children are not simply an 'issue'.
'Democrats will not indefinitely support Israel’s security as its treatment of Palestinians cuts against their values' equals "Outside of a few outspoken critics of Israel's war crimes in the Democratic Party, a few 'moderates' have reluctantly called for tepid reforms of US policy toward Israel, in the face of sustained criticism from Democratic voters". The 'values' of these 'moderates' such as Hakeem Jeffries are only who much they value their elected positions and donors.
It amazes me that you don’t see the connection between the genocide of Palestinians inside Gaza being committed by Israel and the atrocities of October 7, 2023 that were committed by Hamas terrorists.
And I am not sure if your arguments are being made in good faith and your problem is with the genocidal policy of the Netanyahu regime or the existence of Israel itself.
Obviously, nothing justifies the genocide of Palestinians in Gaza by Israel, much as nothing justifies the atrocities committed by Hamas on October 7. All of the selective empathy and hypocrisy around this conflict makes it that much harder to resolve.
'Under Joe Biden, Democrats were horrified by the atrocities committed by Hamas during the Oct. 7, 2023, attacks and supported an Israeli military response to ensure such an attack could never happen again.' This is a shameful interpretation of history, the main reason why the zionist politics has been going on for decades. It is not easy to decide which precise date to choose to start a history, but in the case of Israel's devastation of Palestine - although the zionist plotting started even decades before - the arguably right date ought to be 1948, the year of Nakba (Tragedy in Arabic), when some 750000 Palestinians were expelled or disposed of their land and Israel started the occupation which lasts until today. In order words, we speak of 77 years of apartheid, which slowly but surely turned Gaza into the world's largest concentration camp.
The treatment of Palestinians was harrowing even before Netanyahu, the nazi Trump-like criminal, who has openly preached to have been chosen by God to lead the last war, the war that will end all wars, and with an iron fist started frontal attack on Israeli democracy and the rule of law - and the destruction of Gaza, which today is in rubbles and dust, with literally the genocide going on in front of our eyes. And it has intensified recently, Gaza is now threatened with famine and starvation, and Netanyahu and his fellow nazi members of the government, openly advocating ethnical cleansing - with Trump and Netanyahu planning a resort once all the Palestinians are expelled. Which of course is impossible, and it must inevitably lead to the extermination of Palestine, a beautiful land where, before the zionist takeover in 1948, Muslims, Jews and Christians lived in peace and harmony.
It is hard to have hope that the endless suffering of Gaza - and now increasingly of the West Bank too - may ever end, when a platform professing democracy and truth, twists the history completely. I for one am shocked and heartbroken. It was Netanyahu that pushed the US into the invasion of Iraq, a crime against humanity of biblical proportions (possibly 900000 Iraqis killed), that dealt enormous blow to American economy which by 2011 stopped being leading in the world And it was Biden that enabled his buddy Netanyahu, who without the US support, would be imprisoned, either by the ICC or the Israel judiciary. This continues to damage the US economy and now threatens democracy and the rule of law - support for Israel may easily get you illegally detained if you are not a citizen. It has led to a basically total isolation of both Israel and the US, with only a handful of countries, including the fascist Hungary, supporting the genocide of Gaza. With almost the total lack of non biased information in the US, I am afraid that this ugly, demagogical article will fool one to believe its pretence to be objective - in spite of treating Hamas as equally, if not more, responsible for the tragedy of Palestine. For even before Hamas governing Gaza, there were 59 years of apartheid.
What mind boggles me most is that the same people who fight Trump, have no problem supporting Netanyahu or at best staying quiet, and yet Netanyahu is a mirror image of Trump, the same type of criminal, that keeps losing process after process in Israel, and just like Trump, leads a war on judges. By not acting in support of Palestine, one is harming not only Gaza, but Israel too - recall hundreds of thousand Israelis marching in the streets of Tel Aviv 2 years ago - and in the long run also the US, and even the world at large, its peace, stability and international order.
This is a normal day in the life of Gaza: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0K70gWzr0Y- and yet we are supposed to talk, to this day, of October 7 2023?! There is almost nothing any more in Gaza, literally - and it keeps going on as we debate this. The more I think about it, the more I am troubled and heartbroken - not only by this biblical tragedy, but as much as the heartless response where one Israeli life counts not any more as hundreds of Palestinian lives, but soon thousands. I cannot but think of Holocaust that has been paining and troubling me my entire life - how the world let it happen. Normal Finkelstein, who speaks with authority, passion and profound knowledge, puts beautifully the perspective of October 7 in the first minutes of: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhFm62msNGc
This is a despicable comment. You dismiss a human being, a brilliant scholar who argues with intelligence, cold facts, warm heart, passion, humanity - while not attacking his arguments at all. Moreover, it shows a nazi like attitude, where you are willing to exterminate a total population for a number of hostages that these innocent civilians have nothin to do with - you literally defend a genocide, because of some individuals doing something unacceptable. Would it have been acceptable to you that someone had tried to exterminate all Americans because the US government under Bush was committing crimes against humanity in Iraq? Moreover, what gives you the right to represent the Jews, or classify Finkelstein as a Jew? He speaks as a person, individual, criticising a government run by a Trump-like criminal, surrounded by nazi like advocates of pogroms - at no point he ever talks about Jews generically. What you show is a text book example of anti semitism which is by definition a generalisation of a behaviour of some Jews to represent all Jews. But the most horrifying aspect of your hate speech, once again. is an open preaching of eliminate all people for no reason whatsoever, and doing that at the moment, when more than 60000 thousands were already killed, and Gaza is being reduced to dust. This is like justifying Holocaust for some behaviour of Jews that you would not have liked. I am shocked that this is tolerated in the US while most noble and gentle calls for the end of genocide are being treated with illegal detentions. And moreover, you do it on a platform fighting for democracy and the rule of law. I cannot believe my eyes, I am shocked beyond words.
You continue your depersonalisation of a human being, without offering any argument. This is not just an irrational behaviour, but utterly unacceptable. But let me some logic: he argues whatever he argues, and then gets accused of not caring for the suffering of Jews. His attempt to defend himself by narrating his personal story then leads to an accusation that he is using that that as a shield. This is pure demagoguery.
Some of what you are writing here is total bullshit. Netanyahu was not influential in the U.S. decision to invade Iraq, even though he publicly supported it. He was not even Prime Minister of Israel in 2002 when the George W. Bush administration very foolishly decided to do so after fabricating evidence of Iraq possessing weapons of mass destruction.
And there were episodes of mutual violence between Jews and Palestinians in what is now contemporary Israel long before Palestinians were violently displaced from their land in 1948 by Zionists militias.
And the Biden’s administration’s disgraceful policy of continuing to send weapons to Israel unconditionally after it knew full well that Israel was not doing anything to protect Palestinian civilians inside Gaza during its military response to the October 7, 2023 atrocities, did not isolate the U.S. on the international stage. But Trump’s bullying of our allies and betrayal of Ukraine definitely has.
And there is no evidence to suggest that Ilan was being “ugly and demagogic” in this Op-Ed or that his intent was to “twist the history,” even if his analyses are poor.
And I also find it hypocritical that there was no condemnation or even mention in your comment of the depravity of the Hamas terrorists on October 7, 2023, the ongoing hostage crisis in Gaza that Hamas is solely responsible for, or the fact that Hamas persecutes LGTB+ people and anyone who dissents from its demented ideology in any way inside Gaza.
But, nevertheless, you are absolutely correct in pointing out the staggering hypocrisy of many of “the same people who fight Trump have(ing) no problem supporting Netanyahu or at best staying quiet.”
This political cravenness in the way doing nothing to hold Israel responsible for its genocide of Palestinians, besides being morally reprehensible, is unsustainable for the Democratic Party and is partly why many of its candidates performed poorly in 2024.
But as callous as this may sound, in order for there to be justice for the Palestinians and security for Israel, some Democrats will need to keep ducking the issue so that much worse people for the Palestinians, Israelis, and everyone else don’t get elected. That is assuming, of course, that the United States remains a democracy that continues to hold free and fair elections.
To understand how frightening the situation is both Israel and the US, please read comments by Kelly on my comment - an open call for destruction of Gaza until Hamas lays down arms. And an open anti semitism, an absolute right to speak of all Jews and for all Jews. And yet, this is tolerated in the US, and even on a pro democracy platform - a direct preaching to continue a genocide. Please help if you care about Gaza, about peace, about Israel and about the US - this is not about him and me, this is about the fight for humanity, justice, democracy and the rule of law.
I appreciate your response, and I wish we could debate this live, since it takes a lot of time this way, and moreover, since we do not know each other, it is hard to know the origin of our disagreements (and agreements) - there is often misunderstanding, different language one uses, different personal histories and all that. Still, it's worthwhile to try some more.
True that Netanyahu was not the PM in 2003, but the influence of the Israeli lobby on American politics has been enormous for a long time, and his own was quite strong and he has openly called for Iraq invasion during the 2002-2003 period. But even if I am wrong about his influence then - and it is worth digging deeper into it - it is a minor point in my comment.
Regarding Hamas. I would love us to talk about them - and I surely condemn their stand on human rights, and abhor the October 7 atrocities- but I for one refuse to do it in the same article that discusses decades long apartheid, land snitching, endless killings of Palestinians, destruction of almost all hospitals, schools, universities, museums, homes, you name it. As I wrote Hamas became important after some 60 years of the occupation of Palestine, and the only question is how in the world it did not emerge earlier. They are the outcome of the zionsit criminal pčot, not the cause of it.
Your mentioning of October 7, I am sorry to have to say that, but I can only interpret as racism - why would we even talk about it here? To use it to justify more than 60000 killed, almost 20000 of them children? And even more wounded and mutilated? To justify the Gaza today in rubbles and dust, facing starvation? And prior to October 7, there have been no large scale killings of Palestinians? No denial of basic human rights, no torture, no political prisoners? Just think please: Jews possessed less than 10% of land in Palestine in 1948 - what we have been witnessing is a crime against humanity committed against indigenous population, something that was common centuries ago, but not today. Moreover, October 7 was portrayed by the media the way it should be (except for allegations, never proven, that look more and more lies, of beheaded babies and rapes), with all the human drama, pain, suffering - while the genocide of Gaza is depicted with cold, detached figures, completely devoid of humanity, which could explain why we are not here talking about it all the time. Still, I for one cannot comprehend that lack of imagination, of empathy, of solidarity, of care, of love for truth and understanding, of support for democracy - all of that that makes one silent at the modern day version of Holocaust. Palestinians are being threatened to be exterminated, for gods sake. And to me, that is the greatest threat to American democracy, it is the main driving force behind the insane military budget at the expense of so many social programs, and it literally leads to a situation that you can be illegally detained for defending Palestine. It is high time to that we all do our sacred duty to defend the right of others to exist on their land - but almost all, while agreeing that there is a genocide going on, still use false equivalence in order not to condemn Israel loudly and strongly. This has not started on October 7, 2023 - I can argue this ad infinitum - but as I said, decades ago and should be stopped now, period.
One last comment. Regarding the US international standing: the US stands almost alone, with only a handful countries such as fascist Hungary, in cot condemning Israel. If this is not isolation, I don't know what is - of course, one cannot ignore what is still the most powerful country in the world. This the list of countries refusing to condemn Israel, to which the US shamefully belongs: Argentina, the Czech Republic, Hungary, Israel, Micronesia, Nauru, Palau, Papua New Guinea and the United States. Except for tiny Polynesian countries about which I do not know much, the rest are either fascist of slowly becoming so. It breaks my heart to see this happening to what was a great democracy, in spite of its faults.
I agree with about 95% of your well reasoned points here. But for time’s sake, I am going to mostly explain the small number of your arguments I disagree with.
While without question, there have always been a minority of Israelis who have wanted to ethnically cleanse the West Bank and Gaza of Palestinians, there is zero evidence to suggest that the current genocide in Gaza being perpetrated by Israel was pre-planned by the Israeli government. That sounds like a conspiracy theory to me.
The savagery of Hamas’s massacre on October 7, 2023 drove large swaths of Israeli society off the rails that beforehand had supported the two-state solution. And yes, a small number of the victims of the October 7, 2023 Hamas slaughter were killed by Israel in friendly fire incidents. Tragically, that happens in war.
And regarding Afghanistan, Al-Qaeda terrorists murdered 3,000 Americans on September 11, 2001. Afghanistan is a fascist Muslim theocracy, was never a democracy, and the Taliban government has perhaps the most atrocious human rights record in the entire world.
And as tragic as the destruction of Dresden was during World War II, I think it should be mentioned in the context of the Holocaust because Germany’s depravity and malevolence was the primary cause of World War II.
Obviously, the Israel-Palestine conflict is a lot more complicated. But to not mention the October 7, 2023 Hamas pogrom (massacre) in the context of the genocidal Israeli response to it is the equivalent of not mentioning the 75 years of Palestinian oppression by Israel that partly led to the atrocities of October 7, 2023.
Also, the United States, up until January 20, 2025, despite all of its flaws and imperfections, was a great country and the undisputed leader of the free world.
We have fed and provided basic medical care to more people than any other country in the history of human civilization.
And while Palestinians unquestionably were violently displaced from their land in 1948 by Zionist militias in the Nakba, many Palestinians have also shown zero interest in the adopting the two-state solution over the years and some have violently resisted it. Case in point: the suicide bombings during the 1990s, when the Oslo Accords, aka peace process, were in effect.
But you are correct in stating that Israel must be saved from itself at this point, and it is our duty as Americans to do everything within our power to end this genocide and resolve the conflict.
And Democrats will not be able to duck this issue in 2026 and 2028. If they can’t figure out a way to appeal to Americans voters whose highest priority is the welfare of Palestinians, as well as those concerned about the security of Israel, it could very well spell the end of our nation’s 250-year-old experiment in democracy.
Thank you fro your response to my comment. I actually agree with the vast majority of it. But not in one sentence in my comment did I defend or justify Israel’s genocide of Palestinians in Gaza. How can one accuse me of defending and rationalizing Israel’s destruction of Gaza when I am referring to it as a genocide? How can I possibly criticize it in any “loud(er) and strong(er)” terms?
And the reason I mentioned the depravity of Hamas terrorists on October 7, 2023 is because that is what triggered this genocidal response of Palestinians by Israel. Don’t you think there is a link? But, certainly, the conflict had been raging long before that. I thought I made that clear.
And I am disappointed in your refusal to acknowledge the full extent of the role of Hamas terrorists in prolonging and exacerbating this horrible conflict. The murder, sexual violence, and torture committed by them against innocent Israelis and Americans on October 7, 2023, some of whom were completely committed to Palestinian self-determination and statehood, is as horrific and undeniable as Israel’s genocidal response to it.
And their suicide bombings in the 1990s inside Israel when the Oslo Accords were in effect are one of the reasons why they ultimately collapsed. Hamas was formed in 1987 after the outbreak of the First Intifada, just for the record.
Hanas has no desire to coexist peacefully with Israel and never will despite what it sometimes claims. The reason I am emphasizing this is because they have absolute power inside Gaza and will somehow need to be removed from power if a Palestinian state is going to come to fruition.
And regarding the U.S. standing alone in the world, it alway has with respect to Israel to some extent but not on other issues like our European and Asian allies’ security, for example. But now, due to the idiocy of the Trump regime, we are no longer even a member of the free world and are are completely isolated from the rest of the world.
Also, the complicity of the United States in the genocide of Palestinians is one of many current threats to American Democracy, although amazingly enough, I am not convinced it is the biggest one.
And, finally, even though the FY 2026 defense budget is too expensive, wasteful, and destructive for me to support, only a tiny portion of our weapons are sent to Israel.
David, thanks a lot for responding. I am sorry if I accused you wrongly, but I feel that we need to clear this thing of October 7, since here lies the crux of our disagreement- and it is at the core of the whole endless Palestine tragedy.
I must refute with all my heart, October 7 did not trigger it, impossible. The reaction was so swift, so profound, so devastating, so complete - and add to it open admissions of some members of the Israeli government their plan to either expel or exterminate Gaza population. As harrowing October 7 was, it could not make you a nazi unless you already were, and unless you planned it all along and then just needed the excuse. There are serious allegations, by credible sources- and I wish we could go through them together - that indicate that a number of victims were actually killed by Israeli army. But even if this was a lie, still, I sustain that this ongoing genocide must have been organised in advance - otherwise, Israel would have stopped after say killing, I don't know, 5-10 thousand of Palestinians. Think please: they are now intensifying the destruction, every day some 100 people get killed - and soon there will no hospital left in Gaza. And not allowing food leads to famine and even starvation. I ask you please to reconsider this dogmatic claim built by Israel and basically all western media, but especially the US ones, that it was October 7. For why then now start it all over again?
Look, even being exiled from your land is a crime against humanity, and Nakba was itself was a tragedy of biblical proportions. Prior to 1948 Jews possessed some 6-7% of Palestine land, to arrive to some 85% today - the best data I have been able to find (please correct me if I am wrong). Moreover, almost of our Gaza population never knew freedom. imagine that. I insist, October 7 was natural outcome of decades of ethnical cleansing, land snitching, apartheid, you name it. How can we take one day - not matter how tragic, how barbaric - out of 78 years of oppression? Let me be clear on this: if by any chance Jewish terrorists had killed thousands, even tens of thousands innocent Germans in say 1943, I would maybe shed a tear but would never mention it - the same way I never ever bring the tragic destruction of beautiful Dresden, with some 25000 innocent victims - in the discussion on Holocaust. Every nation, every social group, has committed isolated crimes at some point, but what we should mostly worry about is the systematic violence perpetuated officially by the state itself - which is why I for one find analogy of Gaza destruction with the Holocaust. Although the numbers of victims are vastly different, there is a systematic pattern present in both cases, both perpetuated by the governments and both sharing the collective madness of its population which accepted the genocides. Israel today is turning into a nazi society, and the only way out for them is we help them stop the onslaught of Palestinians - they cannot do it on their own, they went too far. An abuser cannot stop abusing, impossible - the guilt makes you hate your victim, you must eliminate them in order to go on living. It is our duty to save Gaza, but also to save Israel from self-destructions and at the same time to hopefully save American democracy - one of the roots of this historic threat to the US democracy, at least to me, is the support for international terrorism and destruction, from Vietnam to Laos and Cambodia to Chile to Argentina to Salvador to ... to Afghanistan to Iraq to Palestine - these were all either direct invasions or bombings. or orchestrated coups to destroy democracies. No society can remain civilised if it engages regularly in destroying distant countries it is even not in war with. This great sin of its empire is finally catching up with America, now that the rest of the world is catching up or caught up with its economy.
David, this is becoming interesting and for me deeply rewarding - I believe in dialogue above all, especially when there are profound disagreements. And it seems to me too that we agree on most of the issues we touched upon, however, there is this deep, crucial disagreement when it comes to the interpretation of the history of Palestine. I wonder whether we can ever agree, but let's keep trying to see where it can take us. I am afraid of repeating myself, though, but I don't see how to proceed without repeating some things I already said.
There was never an honest to god two state solution, that was to me only a slogan. I gave you the figure and you did not object to it (I looked carefully into it): from at most 7% of land, Jews (Israel) arrived to 85%. Palestinians were never offered freedom after 1948, never equal rights with Jews in Israel. Never. Think of this please: the 750000 thousand people that were expelled were never allowed to go back, but an American Jew for example has the right to settle in Israel, incredibly enough - just by being Jew. That is a text-book example of racism to me. Slowly but surely Israel has been expanding at the expense of non-Jew Palestinians, always pushing for more. Even West Bank is not immune from illegal settlers. There are no people in this world that could accept losing their land - we are defined by it. And it was done by some insane divine right to go there and reclaim land of centuries ago - the whole project of Israel was a combination of a zionist plot and an enormous sense of guilt that the so-called West, especially the US and UK felt - they kept denying Jews visas to escape from Holocaust. One even wonders how long would Americans have waited, if the Soviet Union had not threatened to enter Germany on its own. Moreover, there was and there still is anti Muslim racism in Western Europe - I for one have been witnessing it all my life.
Regarding conspiracy theories. I for one believe in them when they are theories, serious studies, and not random wild speculations. What Trump and his cronies are doing to the US democracy is a full fletched conspiracy. The invasion of Iraq based on deliberate lies was a conspiracy. Nazi persecution of Jews was a conspiracy. And yes, I deeply believe - and I would love to debate it to the bitter end - that there has been a conspiracy on the part of zionists to annex Palestinian land. I believe that initially they mostly dreamt of expelling Palestinians, but you cannot expel all people, and before or later, you will have to start killing them, whether you wanted or not. I do not believe that the US wanted to end up killing possibly even 900000 people in Iraq. We should keep in mind that Hitler himself was refusing for 3 years - from 1938 to 1941 - to sign the extermination of Jews. The conspiracies often start mildly but become runaway modes with time - you cannot control chaotic motions.
I personally have tremendous emotional investment in this issue. Israel has excellent high energy physics of elementary particles and I have colleagues there I love and care for. At the same time, I have worked for decades in the ICTP (google it to get an idea), the most international scientific institute in the world - and we get a lot of Palestinian students that I love and care for. And quite a few wanted to pursue their PhD in Israel, imagine - the only way to get out of this tragedy, by truly mingling and living together. In most cases it did not work out, and now all hope is gone.
Please forgive me, but I must say it again. October 7 was an isolate event, and I am not citing isolated events of violence in the other direction - only a systematic persecution. And again, how could it have gone on for more than 18 months, if it had not been planned? Why would you kill almost 20000 children, destroy almost all hospitals, schools, universities, museums, monuments - why would you reduce a land to rubble and dust if you had not planned it? Because of some 1100 people killed one day? Imagine someone killing all your loved ones - you and I would go crazy maybe and maybe kill many but not endlessly. And surely not people that had nothing to do with it.
I can see that you will not easily give up on this.so let's forget all history and start from scratch. As I write this, Israel is killing Palestinians at a rate of almost 100 a day, and seriously threatening starvation. The fact that this is done tells me - I cannot comprehend for the life of me why not to you - that all of this has nothing but nothing to do with October 7. When you react in pain, hurt, shock - it is a short term effect that will last some days, or weeks, at most. I am sorry for going at such length, but all rational arguments, all that my heart and soul tell me, indicate a deliberate destruction - and it all fits with the zionist ideal, that to me in its core is anti semitic, both tragically and ironically. Just to hear Netanyahu say that he agrees with Trump's Gaza resort idea should speak by itself: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/feb/17/netanyahu-committed-to-trumps-plan-to-take-over-gaza
Lastly. You write: 'The murder, sexual violence, and torture committed by them against innocent Israelis and Americans on October 7, 2023, some of whom were completely committed to Palestinian self-determination and statehood, is as horrific and undeniable as Israel’s genocidal response to it.' There are serious allegations that the sexual violence was invented, and the news of rapes disappeared completely. Amnesty International had been warning us of rapes, on the other hand, committed on jailed Palestinians for quite some time.
But why are we talking of October 7 - it is now a drop of water in an ocean of violence Palestine has been experiencing. This is what is bugging me. I do not mind discussing it - as I do not mind talking of sayHiroshima and Nagasaki - but not when we talk of Holocaust. What the US did in the span of those 2 days is one of the greatest crimes against humanity in modern history, but it pales completely in comparison with the Shoah. I am pleading with you that we now concentrate solely on the unbearable tragedy of biblical proportions - and when it is over, when we stop it, we can go back and discuss details of conflict. Bringing up October 7 paralyses one, makes one see an excuse, and tolerate what Israel has been doing. Otherwise, we would be discussing it here day and night, instead of this total complicit silence. Future generations will have trouble understanding us-we are literally witnessing a total destruction of land and people in front of our eyes.
In any case, as I said, there is a profound voice of Norman Finkelstein, an excellent scholar, who is all passion, authority, knowledge, human care: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhFm62msNGc. I cannot but agree with most that he says.
Once again, I agree with most of what you wrote. But here is where I disagree with you. First, to deny the undeniable sexual violence perpetrated by Hamas terrorists on October 7, 2023 is just a contemptible as denying the undeniable genocide now being perpetrated by Israel. You are correct in saying that Israel has murdered far more Palestinians than were murdered on October 7, 2023 by Hamas terrorists.
But these events are inextricably interlinked because one triggered the other. I still cannot grasp how you don’t recognize that. If this horrible conflict is ever going to be resolved, there will have to be measures put in place to ensure that something like October 7 does not occur again and really is an isolated incident.
Much as Palestinians will need to be paid reparations by Israel and the U.S. for the pain and suffering caused to them by this genocide. How is pointing this out paralyzing me or excusing and tolerating a genocide?
Nonetheless, you are correct in saying the absolute highest priority right now should be ending this genocide, even more important than securing the release of the hostages in my judgement, as callous as that may come off to some. I contact my elected representatives in Congress at least once a week on this matter and I am active in a number of organizations promoting peace in the region, for all its worth.
Regarding the Israeli Law of Return, I see it as extremely immoral and hypocritical that it applies to Jews but not to Palestinians. But I am not convinced that it is racist because Israel has accepted hundreds of thousands of Black refugees from sub-Saharan Africa as well as millions of Mizrahim (Middle Eastern Jews). I have no idea about how to appropriately address it.
And it is highly inaccurate to say that all Israeli and Zionist leaders have not been committed to the two-state solution. Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated by a right-wing Jewish extremist for his commitment to it in November of 1995. To say that all Zionists hate Palestinians is the equivalent, in my opinion, of saying that all Muslims who advocate for Sharia support oppressing women. Which is, of course, not true.
Finally, Goran, very respectfully, you seem to be confusing lies as conspiracies in a number of instances. The idiotic American invasion of Iraq in 2003 was based on lies and bogus intelligence, but does not fit the definition of a conspiracy. The Nazi persecution of Jews was based on hateful lies and deranged conspiracy theories, but was not a conspiracy in and of itself. They were pretty open about their intentions.
And I greatly admire Norman Finkelstein and agree with most of his critiques about Israel and the BDS movement.
I am mind boggled and deeply disturbed by your accusation. At no point have I spoken against Jews whatsoever. Can you please point out to any such remark, in case I am wrong? Now, what relevance does my name have regarding the plea to stop the genocide of Gaza? I would happily talk about my origins if you have provided yours and wanted us to get to know each other better.
'They flooded...' 'these people have no culture, no stories, nothing' ...- this is the most racist writing I have seen, or at least the most open one. I wish to plead with fellow Contrarians to condemn vehemently and passionately this preaching of endless killings of 'them'.
Netanyahu worked really hard to get Trump elected. Ben probably thought as Don is a fellow criminal kleptocrat, they would be buds. Like the dumb people in MI who were mad at Harris for Biden’s abandonment of the Palestinians, Ben is now learning the hard way that Don has absolutely no loyalty to those who help him. None. Zero. Zip. Zilch. The Arabs have given Don a bribe way bigger than Ben ever could — a 747, for freak's sake — so Ben is SO yesterday.
Ilan is engaging in wishful thinking, as much as I admire and support J Street. Securing the release of the remaining 59 Israeli hostages is a low priority for Netanyahu.
His highest priority is the destruction of Hamas, even though it is not realistic and is actually strengthening them because of the suffering he is causing Palestinian civilians.
OMG! NO! NOT A Potential Nobel Prize for Trump!!!!!!!
If quite secondarily to Trump's personal financial arrangements with Arab countries, a peace plan for Israel/Palestine were to emerge during this administration it would not by any means offset the cruelty of the dissolution of USAID and his cruelty to his own citizens and migrants transported to concentration camps.
Nobel Prize? Not even a thought should be given to that!
One of the reasons trump won the election was likely the Jewish vote which saw him as an ally of Israel. I think his subsequent behavior seems to indicate that he courted the vote so he could get elected and then do whatever he wants, which is to enrich himself and American business. A lot of voters are beginning to realize that many of this administration's policies are NOT what they voted for. I suspect this is a rude awakening for the Jewish vote.
Irene,
71% of American Jews voted for Harris in 2024 vs 26% who voted for Trump. Among Muslim Americans, a much higher percentage voted for Trump; over 40% and a plurality.
He is going to be a lot worse for both Israelis and Palestinians than Harris would have been.
He is already a lot worse for just about everything.
The Jewish vote is relatively small compared to the evangelicals, who largely supported Trump. And of the Jewish voters, only the Orthodox minority were solidly behind Trump. Jewish voters tend to vote Democratic.
I'm one of the Jewish voters who would NEVER ever vote for trump. I find the way he now treats Israel to be callous and damaging. This administration continues to show it cannot be trusted or relied upon, by anyone.
“It does not have to be that way—if Israel is willing to change course, end the war in Gaza, and pursue a vision of integration with its Arab neighbors that includes Palestinian rights to security, freedom, and self-determination.”
Is there any realistic indication that Israel is prepared to do this? I don’t see any.
Not under this government. Though a hostage deal may still be possible. But Israel will have elections in the next 18 months and there may be possibilities after that.
You give Biden too much credit about standing up to Israel. He talked a little and withheld the heavy bombs for a few days, but in the end he collaborated and provided the ordnance used to slaughter civilians. He was blind, timid and feckless. There is innocent blood on his hands.
Biden withheld only the 2,000 pound bombs to Israel and begged Netanyahu to protect Palestinians civilians and allow humanitarian aid to enter Gaza. He absolutely is feckless and has Palestinian blood on his hands.
As is typical of Ilan Goldenberg's Substack pieces, this is full of euphemisms and skips over inconvenient facts.
'Israel’s treatment of Palestinian civilians, including not allowing enough aid into Gaza' is a translation of "Israel's total blockade of all humanitarian aid for over two months, with the open intent of starving the population of Gaza". "Not enough" equals "none whatsoever".
"Democratic misalignment with Israel on the Palestinian issue" is a nice way of saying "the abject horror across the Democratic base at the blatant genocidal onslaught by Israel in Gaza, and the increased intensity of apartheid-driven ethnic cleaning in the West Bank". Tens of thousands of murdered Palestinian children are not simply an 'issue'.
'Democrats will not indefinitely support Israel’s security as its treatment of Palestinians cuts against their values' equals "Outside of a few outspoken critics of Israel's war crimes in the Democratic Party, a few 'moderates' have reluctantly called for tepid reforms of US policy toward Israel, in the face of sustained criticism from Democratic voters". The 'values' of these 'moderates' such as Hakeem Jeffries are only who much they value their elected positions and donors.
..and so on.
It amazes me that you don’t see the connection between the genocide of Palestinians inside Gaza being committed by Israel and the atrocities of October 7, 2023 that were committed by Hamas terrorists.
And I am not sure if your arguments are being made in good faith and your problem is with the genocidal policy of the Netanyahu regime or the existence of Israel itself.
Obviously, nothing justifies the genocide of Palestinians in Gaza by Israel, much as nothing justifies the atrocities committed by Hamas on October 7. All of the selective empathy and hypocrisy around this conflict makes it that much harder to resolve.
'Under Joe Biden, Democrats were horrified by the atrocities committed by Hamas during the Oct. 7, 2023, attacks and supported an Israeli military response to ensure such an attack could never happen again.' This is a shameful interpretation of history, the main reason why the zionist politics has been going on for decades. It is not easy to decide which precise date to choose to start a history, but in the case of Israel's devastation of Palestine - although the zionist plotting started even decades before - the arguably right date ought to be 1948, the year of Nakba (Tragedy in Arabic), when some 750000 Palestinians were expelled or disposed of their land and Israel started the occupation which lasts until today. In order words, we speak of 77 years of apartheid, which slowly but surely turned Gaza into the world's largest concentration camp.
The treatment of Palestinians was harrowing even before Netanyahu, the nazi Trump-like criminal, who has openly preached to have been chosen by God to lead the last war, the war that will end all wars, and with an iron fist started frontal attack on Israeli democracy and the rule of law - and the destruction of Gaza, which today is in rubbles and dust, with literally the genocide going on in front of our eyes. And it has intensified recently, Gaza is now threatened with famine and starvation, and Netanyahu and his fellow nazi members of the government, openly advocating ethnical cleansing - with Trump and Netanyahu planning a resort once all the Palestinians are expelled. Which of course is impossible, and it must inevitably lead to the extermination of Palestine, a beautiful land where, before the zionist takeover in 1948, Muslims, Jews and Christians lived in peace and harmony.
It is hard to have hope that the endless suffering of Gaza - and now increasingly of the West Bank too - may ever end, when a platform professing democracy and truth, twists the history completely. I for one am shocked and heartbroken. It was Netanyahu that pushed the US into the invasion of Iraq, a crime against humanity of biblical proportions (possibly 900000 Iraqis killed), that dealt enormous blow to American economy which by 2011 stopped being leading in the world And it was Biden that enabled his buddy Netanyahu, who without the US support, would be imprisoned, either by the ICC or the Israel judiciary. This continues to damage the US economy and now threatens democracy and the rule of law - support for Israel may easily get you illegally detained if you are not a citizen. It has led to a basically total isolation of both Israel and the US, with only a handful of countries, including the fascist Hungary, supporting the genocide of Gaza. With almost the total lack of non biased information in the US, I am afraid that this ugly, demagogical article will fool one to believe its pretence to be objective - in spite of treating Hamas as equally, if not more, responsible for the tragedy of Palestine. For even before Hamas governing Gaza, there were 59 years of apartheid.
What mind boggles me most is that the same people who fight Trump, have no problem supporting Netanyahu or at best staying quiet, and yet Netanyahu is a mirror image of Trump, the same type of criminal, that keeps losing process after process in Israel, and just like Trump, leads a war on judges. By not acting in support of Palestine, one is harming not only Gaza, but Israel too - recall hundreds of thousand Israelis marching in the streets of Tel Aviv 2 years ago - and in the long run also the US, and even the world at large, its peace, stability and international order.
This is a normal day in the life of Gaza: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0K70gWzr0Y- and yet we are supposed to talk, to this day, of October 7 2023?! There is almost nothing any more in Gaza, literally - and it keeps going on as we debate this. The more I think about it, the more I am troubled and heartbroken - not only by this biblical tragedy, but as much as the heartless response where one Israeli life counts not any more as hundreds of Palestinian lives, but soon thousands. I cannot but think of Holocaust that has been paining and troubling me my entire life - how the world let it happen. Normal Finkelstein, who speaks with authority, passion and profound knowledge, puts beautifully the perspective of October 7 in the first minutes of: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhFm62msNGc
This is a despicable comment. You dismiss a human being, a brilliant scholar who argues with intelligence, cold facts, warm heart, passion, humanity - while not attacking his arguments at all. Moreover, it shows a nazi like attitude, where you are willing to exterminate a total population for a number of hostages that these innocent civilians have nothin to do with - you literally defend a genocide, because of some individuals doing something unacceptable. Would it have been acceptable to you that someone had tried to exterminate all Americans because the US government under Bush was committing crimes against humanity in Iraq? Moreover, what gives you the right to represent the Jews, or classify Finkelstein as a Jew? He speaks as a person, individual, criticising a government run by a Trump-like criminal, surrounded by nazi like advocates of pogroms - at no point he ever talks about Jews generically. What you show is a text book example of anti semitism which is by definition a generalisation of a behaviour of some Jews to represent all Jews. But the most horrifying aspect of your hate speech, once again. is an open preaching of eliminate all people for no reason whatsoever, and doing that at the moment, when more than 60000 thousands were already killed, and Gaza is being reduced to dust. This is like justifying Holocaust for some behaviour of Jews that you would not have liked. I am shocked that this is tolerated in the US while most noble and gentle calls for the end of genocide are being treated with illegal detentions. And moreover, you do it on a platform fighting for democracy and the rule of law. I cannot believe my eyes, I am shocked beyond words.
You continue your depersonalisation of a human being, without offering any argument. This is not just an irrational behaviour, but utterly unacceptable. But let me some logic: he argues whatever he argues, and then gets accused of not caring for the suffering of Jews. His attempt to defend himself by narrating his personal story then leads to an accusation that he is using that that as a shield. This is pure demagoguery.
Some of what you are writing here is total bullshit. Netanyahu was not influential in the U.S. decision to invade Iraq, even though he publicly supported it. He was not even Prime Minister of Israel in 2002 when the George W. Bush administration very foolishly decided to do so after fabricating evidence of Iraq possessing weapons of mass destruction.
And there were episodes of mutual violence between Jews and Palestinians in what is now contemporary Israel long before Palestinians were violently displaced from their land in 1948 by Zionists militias.
And the Biden’s administration’s disgraceful policy of continuing to send weapons to Israel unconditionally after it knew full well that Israel was not doing anything to protect Palestinian civilians inside Gaza during its military response to the October 7, 2023 atrocities, did not isolate the U.S. on the international stage. But Trump’s bullying of our allies and betrayal of Ukraine definitely has.
And there is no evidence to suggest that Ilan was being “ugly and demagogic” in this Op-Ed or that his intent was to “twist the history,” even if his analyses are poor.
And I also find it hypocritical that there was no condemnation or even mention in your comment of the depravity of the Hamas terrorists on October 7, 2023, the ongoing hostage crisis in Gaza that Hamas is solely responsible for, or the fact that Hamas persecutes LGTB+ people and anyone who dissents from its demented ideology in any way inside Gaza.
But, nevertheless, you are absolutely correct in pointing out the staggering hypocrisy of many of “the same people who fight Trump have(ing) no problem supporting Netanyahu or at best staying quiet.”
This political cravenness in the way doing nothing to hold Israel responsible for its genocide of Palestinians, besides being morally reprehensible, is unsustainable for the Democratic Party and is partly why many of its candidates performed poorly in 2024.
But as callous as this may sound, in order for there to be justice for the Palestinians and security for Israel, some Democrats will need to keep ducking the issue so that much worse people for the Palestinians, Israelis, and everyone else don’t get elected. That is assuming, of course, that the United States remains a democracy that continues to hold free and fair elections.
To understand how frightening the situation is both Israel and the US, please read comments by Kelly on my comment - an open call for destruction of Gaza until Hamas lays down arms. And an open anti semitism, an absolute right to speak of all Jews and for all Jews. And yet, this is tolerated in the US, and even on a pro democracy platform - a direct preaching to continue a genocide. Please help if you care about Gaza, about peace, about Israel and about the US - this is not about him and me, this is about the fight for humanity, justice, democracy and the rule of law.
I appreciate your response, and I wish we could debate this live, since it takes a lot of time this way, and moreover, since we do not know each other, it is hard to know the origin of our disagreements (and agreements) - there is often misunderstanding, different language one uses, different personal histories and all that. Still, it's worthwhile to try some more.
True that Netanyahu was not the PM in 2003, but the influence of the Israeli lobby on American politics has been enormous for a long time, and his own was quite strong and he has openly called for Iraq invasion during the 2002-2003 period. But even if I am wrong about his influence then - and it is worth digging deeper into it - it is a minor point in my comment.
Regarding Hamas. I would love us to talk about them - and I surely condemn their stand on human rights, and abhor the October 7 atrocities- but I for one refuse to do it in the same article that discusses decades long apartheid, land snitching, endless killings of Palestinians, destruction of almost all hospitals, schools, universities, museums, homes, you name it. As I wrote Hamas became important after some 60 years of the occupation of Palestine, and the only question is how in the world it did not emerge earlier. They are the outcome of the zionsit criminal pčot, not the cause of it.
Your mentioning of October 7, I am sorry to have to say that, but I can only interpret as racism - why would we even talk about it here? To use it to justify more than 60000 killed, almost 20000 of them children? And even more wounded and mutilated? To justify the Gaza today in rubbles and dust, facing starvation? And prior to October 7, there have been no large scale killings of Palestinians? No denial of basic human rights, no torture, no political prisoners? Just think please: Jews possessed less than 10% of land in Palestine in 1948 - what we have been witnessing is a crime against humanity committed against indigenous population, something that was common centuries ago, but not today. Moreover, October 7 was portrayed by the media the way it should be (except for allegations, never proven, that look more and more lies, of beheaded babies and rapes), with all the human drama, pain, suffering - while the genocide of Gaza is depicted with cold, detached figures, completely devoid of humanity, which could explain why we are not here talking about it all the time. Still, I for one cannot comprehend that lack of imagination, of empathy, of solidarity, of care, of love for truth and understanding, of support for democracy - all of that that makes one silent at the modern day version of Holocaust. Palestinians are being threatened to be exterminated, for gods sake. And to me, that is the greatest threat to American democracy, it is the main driving force behind the insane military budget at the expense of so many social programs, and it literally leads to a situation that you can be illegally detained for defending Palestine. It is high time to that we all do our sacred duty to defend the right of others to exist on their land - but almost all, while agreeing that there is a genocide going on, still use false equivalence in order not to condemn Israel loudly and strongly. This has not started on October 7, 2023 - I can argue this ad infinitum - but as I said, decades ago and should be stopped now, period.
One last comment. Regarding the US international standing: the US stands almost alone, with only a handful countries such as fascist Hungary, in cot condemning Israel. If this is not isolation, I don't know what is - of course, one cannot ignore what is still the most powerful country in the world. This the list of countries refusing to condemn Israel, to which the US shamefully belongs: Argentina, the Czech Republic, Hungary, Israel, Micronesia, Nauru, Palau, Papua New Guinea and the United States. Except for tiny Polynesian countries about which I do not know much, the rest are either fascist of slowly becoming so. It breaks my heart to see this happening to what was a great democracy, in spite of its faults.
Goran,
I agree with about 95% of your well reasoned points here. But for time’s sake, I am going to mostly explain the small number of your arguments I disagree with.
While without question, there have always been a minority of Israelis who have wanted to ethnically cleanse the West Bank and Gaza of Palestinians, there is zero evidence to suggest that the current genocide in Gaza being perpetrated by Israel was pre-planned by the Israeli government. That sounds like a conspiracy theory to me.
The savagery of Hamas’s massacre on October 7, 2023 drove large swaths of Israeli society off the rails that beforehand had supported the two-state solution. And yes, a small number of the victims of the October 7, 2023 Hamas slaughter were killed by Israel in friendly fire incidents. Tragically, that happens in war.
And regarding Afghanistan, Al-Qaeda terrorists murdered 3,000 Americans on September 11, 2001. Afghanistan is a fascist Muslim theocracy, was never a democracy, and the Taliban government has perhaps the most atrocious human rights record in the entire world.
And as tragic as the destruction of Dresden was during World War II, I think it should be mentioned in the context of the Holocaust because Germany’s depravity and malevolence was the primary cause of World War II.
Obviously, the Israel-Palestine conflict is a lot more complicated. But to not mention the October 7, 2023 Hamas pogrom (massacre) in the context of the genocidal Israeli response to it is the equivalent of not mentioning the 75 years of Palestinian oppression by Israel that partly led to the atrocities of October 7, 2023.
Also, the United States, up until January 20, 2025, despite all of its flaws and imperfections, was a great country and the undisputed leader of the free world.
We have fed and provided basic medical care to more people than any other country in the history of human civilization.
And while Palestinians unquestionably were violently displaced from their land in 1948 by Zionist militias in the Nakba, many Palestinians have also shown zero interest in the adopting the two-state solution over the years and some have violently resisted it. Case in point: the suicide bombings during the 1990s, when the Oslo Accords, aka peace process, were in effect.
But you are correct in stating that Israel must be saved from itself at this point, and it is our duty as Americans to do everything within our power to end this genocide and resolve the conflict.
And Democrats will not be able to duck this issue in 2026 and 2028. If they can’t figure out a way to appeal to Americans voters whose highest priority is the welfare of Palestinians, as well as those concerned about the security of Israel, it could very well spell the end of our nation’s 250-year-old experiment in democracy.
Goran,
Thank you fro your response to my comment. I actually agree with the vast majority of it. But not in one sentence in my comment did I defend or justify Israel’s genocide of Palestinians in Gaza. How can one accuse me of defending and rationalizing Israel’s destruction of Gaza when I am referring to it as a genocide? How can I possibly criticize it in any “loud(er) and strong(er)” terms?
And the reason I mentioned the depravity of Hamas terrorists on October 7, 2023 is because that is what triggered this genocidal response of Palestinians by Israel. Don’t you think there is a link? But, certainly, the conflict had been raging long before that. I thought I made that clear.
And I am disappointed in your refusal to acknowledge the full extent of the role of Hamas terrorists in prolonging and exacerbating this horrible conflict. The murder, sexual violence, and torture committed by them against innocent Israelis and Americans on October 7, 2023, some of whom were completely committed to Palestinian self-determination and statehood, is as horrific and undeniable as Israel’s genocidal response to it.
And their suicide bombings in the 1990s inside Israel when the Oslo Accords were in effect are one of the reasons why they ultimately collapsed. Hamas was formed in 1987 after the outbreak of the First Intifada, just for the record.
Hanas has no desire to coexist peacefully with Israel and never will despite what it sometimes claims. The reason I am emphasizing this is because they have absolute power inside Gaza and will somehow need to be removed from power if a Palestinian state is going to come to fruition.
And regarding the U.S. standing alone in the world, it alway has with respect to Israel to some extent but not on other issues like our European and Asian allies’ security, for example. But now, due to the idiocy of the Trump regime, we are no longer even a member of the free world and are are completely isolated from the rest of the world.
Also, the complicity of the United States in the genocide of Palestinians is one of many current threats to American Democracy, although amazingly enough, I am not convinced it is the biggest one.
And, finally, even though the FY 2026 defense budget is too expensive, wasteful, and destructive for me to support, only a tiny portion of our weapons are sent to Israel.
David, thanks a lot for responding. I am sorry if I accused you wrongly, but I feel that we need to clear this thing of October 7, since here lies the crux of our disagreement- and it is at the core of the whole endless Palestine tragedy.
I must refute with all my heart, October 7 did not trigger it, impossible. The reaction was so swift, so profound, so devastating, so complete - and add to it open admissions of some members of the Israeli government their plan to either expel or exterminate Gaza population. As harrowing October 7 was, it could not make you a nazi unless you already were, and unless you planned it all along and then just needed the excuse. There are serious allegations, by credible sources- and I wish we could go through them together - that indicate that a number of victims were actually killed by Israeli army. But even if this was a lie, still, I sustain that this ongoing genocide must have been organised in advance - otherwise, Israel would have stopped after say killing, I don't know, 5-10 thousand of Palestinians. Think please: they are now intensifying the destruction, every day some 100 people get killed - and soon there will no hospital left in Gaza. And not allowing food leads to famine and even starvation. I ask you please to reconsider this dogmatic claim built by Israel and basically all western media, but especially the US ones, that it was October 7. For why then now start it all over again?
Look, even being exiled from your land is a crime against humanity, and Nakba was itself was a tragedy of biblical proportions. Prior to 1948 Jews possessed some 6-7% of Palestine land, to arrive to some 85% today - the best data I have been able to find (please correct me if I am wrong). Moreover, almost of our Gaza population never knew freedom. imagine that. I insist, October 7 was natural outcome of decades of ethnical cleansing, land snitching, apartheid, you name it. How can we take one day - not matter how tragic, how barbaric - out of 78 years of oppression? Let me be clear on this: if by any chance Jewish terrorists had killed thousands, even tens of thousands innocent Germans in say 1943, I would maybe shed a tear but would never mention it - the same way I never ever bring the tragic destruction of beautiful Dresden, with some 25000 innocent victims - in the discussion on Holocaust. Every nation, every social group, has committed isolated crimes at some point, but what we should mostly worry about is the systematic violence perpetuated officially by the state itself - which is why I for one find analogy of Gaza destruction with the Holocaust. Although the numbers of victims are vastly different, there is a systematic pattern present in both cases, both perpetuated by the governments and both sharing the collective madness of its population which accepted the genocides. Israel today is turning into a nazi society, and the only way out for them is we help them stop the onslaught of Palestinians - they cannot do it on their own, they went too far. An abuser cannot stop abusing, impossible - the guilt makes you hate your victim, you must eliminate them in order to go on living. It is our duty to save Gaza, but also to save Israel from self-destructions and at the same time to hopefully save American democracy - one of the roots of this historic threat to the US democracy, at least to me, is the support for international terrorism and destruction, from Vietnam to Laos and Cambodia to Chile to Argentina to Salvador to ... to Afghanistan to Iraq to Palestine - these were all either direct invasions or bombings. or orchestrated coups to destroy democracies. No society can remain civilised if it engages regularly in destroying distant countries it is even not in war with. This great sin of its empire is finally catching up with America, now that the rest of the world is catching up or caught up with its economy.
David, this is becoming interesting and for me deeply rewarding - I believe in dialogue above all, especially when there are profound disagreements. And it seems to me too that we agree on most of the issues we touched upon, however, there is this deep, crucial disagreement when it comes to the interpretation of the history of Palestine. I wonder whether we can ever agree, but let's keep trying to see where it can take us. I am afraid of repeating myself, though, but I don't see how to proceed without repeating some things I already said.
There was never an honest to god two state solution, that was to me only a slogan. I gave you the figure and you did not object to it (I looked carefully into it): from at most 7% of land, Jews (Israel) arrived to 85%. Palestinians were never offered freedom after 1948, never equal rights with Jews in Israel. Never. Think of this please: the 750000 thousand people that were expelled were never allowed to go back, but an American Jew for example has the right to settle in Israel, incredibly enough - just by being Jew. That is a text-book example of racism to me. Slowly but surely Israel has been expanding at the expense of non-Jew Palestinians, always pushing for more. Even West Bank is not immune from illegal settlers. There are no people in this world that could accept losing their land - we are defined by it. And it was done by some insane divine right to go there and reclaim land of centuries ago - the whole project of Israel was a combination of a zionist plot and an enormous sense of guilt that the so-called West, especially the US and UK felt - they kept denying Jews visas to escape from Holocaust. One even wonders how long would Americans have waited, if the Soviet Union had not threatened to enter Germany on its own. Moreover, there was and there still is anti Muslim racism in Western Europe - I for one have been witnessing it all my life.
Regarding conspiracy theories. I for one believe in them when they are theories, serious studies, and not random wild speculations. What Trump and his cronies are doing to the US democracy is a full fletched conspiracy. The invasion of Iraq based on deliberate lies was a conspiracy. Nazi persecution of Jews was a conspiracy. And yes, I deeply believe - and I would love to debate it to the bitter end - that there has been a conspiracy on the part of zionists to annex Palestinian land. I believe that initially they mostly dreamt of expelling Palestinians, but you cannot expel all people, and before or later, you will have to start killing them, whether you wanted or not. I do not believe that the US wanted to end up killing possibly even 900000 people in Iraq. We should keep in mind that Hitler himself was refusing for 3 years - from 1938 to 1941 - to sign the extermination of Jews. The conspiracies often start mildly but become runaway modes with time - you cannot control chaotic motions.
I personally have tremendous emotional investment in this issue. Israel has excellent high energy physics of elementary particles and I have colleagues there I love and care for. At the same time, I have worked for decades in the ICTP (google it to get an idea), the most international scientific institute in the world - and we get a lot of Palestinian students that I love and care for. And quite a few wanted to pursue their PhD in Israel, imagine - the only way to get out of this tragedy, by truly mingling and living together. In most cases it did not work out, and now all hope is gone.
Please forgive me, but I must say it again. October 7 was an isolate event, and I am not citing isolated events of violence in the other direction - only a systematic persecution. And again, how could it have gone on for more than 18 months, if it had not been planned? Why would you kill almost 20000 children, destroy almost all hospitals, schools, universities, museums, monuments - why would you reduce a land to rubble and dust if you had not planned it? Because of some 1100 people killed one day? Imagine someone killing all your loved ones - you and I would go crazy maybe and maybe kill many but not endlessly. And surely not people that had nothing to do with it.
I can see that you will not easily give up on this.so let's forget all history and start from scratch. As I write this, Israel is killing Palestinians at a rate of almost 100 a day, and seriously threatening starvation. The fact that this is done tells me - I cannot comprehend for the life of me why not to you - that all of this has nothing but nothing to do with October 7. When you react in pain, hurt, shock - it is a short term effect that will last some days, or weeks, at most. I am sorry for going at such length, but all rational arguments, all that my heart and soul tell me, indicate a deliberate destruction - and it all fits with the zionist ideal, that to me in its core is anti semitic, both tragically and ironically. Just to hear Netanyahu say that he agrees with Trump's Gaza resort idea should speak by itself: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/feb/17/netanyahu-committed-to-trumps-plan-to-take-over-gaza
Lastly. You write: 'The murder, sexual violence, and torture committed by them against innocent Israelis and Americans on October 7, 2023, some of whom were completely committed to Palestinian self-determination and statehood, is as horrific and undeniable as Israel’s genocidal response to it.' There are serious allegations that the sexual violence was invented, and the news of rapes disappeared completely. Amnesty International had been warning us of rapes, on the other hand, committed on jailed Palestinians for quite some time.
But why are we talking of October 7 - it is now a drop of water in an ocean of violence Palestine has been experiencing. This is what is bugging me. I do not mind discussing it - as I do not mind talking of sayHiroshima and Nagasaki - but not when we talk of Holocaust. What the US did in the span of those 2 days is one of the greatest crimes against humanity in modern history, but it pales completely in comparison with the Shoah. I am pleading with you that we now concentrate solely on the unbearable tragedy of biblical proportions - and when it is over, when we stop it, we can go back and discuss details of conflict. Bringing up October 7 paralyses one, makes one see an excuse, and tolerate what Israel has been doing. Otherwise, we would be discussing it here day and night, instead of this total complicit silence. Future generations will have trouble understanding us-we are literally witnessing a total destruction of land and people in front of our eyes.
In any case, as I said, there is a profound voice of Norman Finkelstein, an excellent scholar, who is all passion, authority, knowledge, human care: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhFm62msNGc. I cannot but agree with most that he says.
Goran,
Once again, I agree with most of what you wrote. But here is where I disagree with you. First, to deny the undeniable sexual violence perpetrated by Hamas terrorists on October 7, 2023 is just a contemptible as denying the undeniable genocide now being perpetrated by Israel. You are correct in saying that Israel has murdered far more Palestinians than were murdered on October 7, 2023 by Hamas terrorists.
But these events are inextricably interlinked because one triggered the other. I still cannot grasp how you don’t recognize that. If this horrible conflict is ever going to be resolved, there will have to be measures put in place to ensure that something like October 7 does not occur again and really is an isolated incident.
Much as Palestinians will need to be paid reparations by Israel and the U.S. for the pain and suffering caused to them by this genocide. How is pointing this out paralyzing me or excusing and tolerating a genocide?
Nonetheless, you are correct in saying the absolute highest priority right now should be ending this genocide, even more important than securing the release of the hostages in my judgement, as callous as that may come off to some. I contact my elected representatives in Congress at least once a week on this matter and I am active in a number of organizations promoting peace in the region, for all its worth.
Regarding the Israeli Law of Return, I see it as extremely immoral and hypocritical that it applies to Jews but not to Palestinians. But I am not convinced that it is racist because Israel has accepted hundreds of thousands of Black refugees from sub-Saharan Africa as well as millions of Mizrahim (Middle Eastern Jews). I have no idea about how to appropriately address it.
And it is highly inaccurate to say that all Israeli and Zionist leaders have not been committed to the two-state solution. Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated by a right-wing Jewish extremist for his commitment to it in November of 1995. To say that all Zionists hate Palestinians is the equivalent, in my opinion, of saying that all Muslims who advocate for Sharia support oppressing women. Which is, of course, not true.
Finally, Goran, very respectfully, you seem to be confusing lies as conspiracies in a number of instances. The idiotic American invasion of Iraq in 2003 was based on lies and bogus intelligence, but does not fit the definition of a conspiracy. The Nazi persecution of Jews was based on hateful lies and deranged conspiracy theories, but was not a conspiracy in and of itself. They were pretty open about their intentions.
And I greatly admire Norman Finkelstein and agree with most of his critiques about Israel and the BDS movement.
I am mind boggled and deeply disturbed by your accusation. At no point have I spoken against Jews whatsoever. Can you please point out to any such remark, in case I am wrong? Now, what relevance does my name have regarding the plea to stop the genocide of Gaza? I would happily talk about my origins if you have provided yours and wanted us to get to know each other better.
'They flooded...' 'these people have no culture, no stories, nothing' ...- this is the most racist writing I have seen, or at least the most open one. I wish to plead with fellow Contrarians to condemn vehemently and passionately this preaching of endless killings of 'them'.
Netanyahu worked really hard to get Trump elected. Ben probably thought as Don is a fellow criminal kleptocrat, they would be buds. Like the dumb people in MI who were mad at Harris for Biden’s abandonment of the Palestinians, Ben is now learning the hard way that Don has absolutely no loyalty to those who help him. None. Zero. Zip. Zilch. The Arabs have given Don a bribe way bigger than Ben ever could — a 747, for freak's sake — so Ben is SO yesterday.
Interesting to read various ways things could go with Israel, Gaza, etc. I wonder if Netanyahu would change enough, though.
Ilan is engaging in wishful thinking, as much as I admire and support J Street. Securing the release of the remaining 59 Israeli hostages is a low priority for Netanyahu.
His highest priority is the destruction of Hamas, even though it is not realistic and is actually strengthening them because of the suffering he is causing Palestinian civilians.