I think when the actual hardships start hitting these people, then they will slowly begin to realize that they are being lied to and screwed over by the Republicans. That should happen pretty quickly, as irate Republicans are already showing up at town halls and venting their displeasure, whether their representative is there or not. I too, am astounded by the absolute ignorance and complacency that I see in too many voters as I listen to the comments at work. Also the lack of empathy for others, especially if they are from different races and cultures is pretty appalling. As a whole, I don't think we are in any way a progressive country or open to changes that need to be made for our country and our planet. Our national reputation is taking a real hit, and deservedly so. To say the Democrats have a lot of work to do is a huge understatement, but you cannot keep blaming the one party who is trying to do the right thing in most cases. The information is out there on all issues facing our country and our planet, but you cannot educate those who refuse to acknowledge any of this. Their beliefs are not based on any logical thinking or real circumstances. Our political parties have demonized the opposing parties for too long and we are now dealing with the results. Its them vs. us, and until this changes and Americans stop seeing other Americans as the enemy, nothing will change. That is why the extremists in the Republican Party are doing so well. We have got to find common ground for everyone. That is the message the Democrats need to be communicating. It would also help if the mainstream press would report the news in a factual manner, and not just repeat what Trump and his cronies are saying. They never fact check in real time and that is a problem. That normalizes extreme behavior, and is helping Trumps agenda to succeed.
So where is that common ground? Do we agree to deport people without a hearing? Do we agree to close Social Security offices, but not as many? Do we agree to cut 400 billion from Medicaid instead of 800 million? And can we actually get the republicans to agree to anything but demonizing Democrats? They are bent on destroying the country. How do we compromise with that? You have magical thinking. The republicans are not a group that can be worked with.
I agree that we cannot find common ground with extreme ideology. There are a lot of Republicans who are not in the MAGA camp. My brother-in-law for one. He is opposed to many of the issues above but voted for Trump regardless because he thinks the Democrats are too off base about everything. That is what I mean about common ground. I too think all of the above is horrific, that is why I have been a life long Democrat. I just think we need to make the Democrat profile more palatable to other voters. If we cant admit that than we are not going to win elections anymore.
Nope. They will never blame republicans and trump. They will just blame it all on Biden and Harris and Obama and anyone else trump says to blame.
And… common ground on what exactly?? Women bleeding to death in hospital parking lots because docs are afraid they will go to jail if they do a medically needed abortion? Or maybe a violent insurrection in our Capitol? Or how about abandoning toxic waste clean-ups? Replacing lead pipes in cities? letting our public schools fall down? You absolutely cannot and should not have common ground with fascists.
It is impossible to ‘fact check’ trump's fire hose of lies in real time but you are right that the MSP is complicit in his coup.
I think the bottom line is that we need to (re)build trust in the Democratic Party. Since I have little faith that can happen before it's too late, I hope we see a third party rise up out of groups like this and others like it.
Democrats have failed in their outreach to voters. We talk about “the message” we need to communicate. We don’t talk enough about reaching out so that communication goes both ways. Democrats have abandoned red states to republicans. Voters there have never interacted with a Democrat with “the message,” according to one of Jen Rubin’s interviewees. When they do, people are open because it’s a good message.
Black turnout in Chicago for the presidential election (and a Black candidate) was poor. Democrats knew they would win Illinois so they didn’t reach out. Meanwhile, the party recruited many Chicagoans to canvass in Wisconsin and work phone banks for that swing state. The reaction of Black voters in urban areas there? You come to us when you want our vote, but where are you at other times? They are not wrong. I would be more motivated to knock on doors here in Chicago where I live than in Milwaukee, so the party misses making that connection as well.
In education, it is highly problematic—unethical—to focus on teaching students whose achievement on tests will ensure you get positive accountability ratings. What about the other students?
It is thought to be strategic to give money only to candidates who have a chance of winning—to flip the house, or senate, etc. Everyone seems to buy into this idea.
I would like to see the Democrats start connecting with voters for purposes other than to win the next important election.
Adding to my comment: Democratic fundraising feels totally one way too. I made a monthly contribution to the DCCC. I tend to avoid monthly giving. Yet I keep getting bombarded with fundraising appeals as if I have never given. This makes me want to reconsider my monthly contribution, but I don’t know where to direct my money if I’m interested in the kind of outreach I describe. The organization Force Multiplier is all about investing in candidates that can win. I want to invest in candidates that will reach out. (I unsubscribed to the DCCC, which I try not to do—I want to remain open to the messaging. But it really bothered me that there was no recognition of my ongoing support. I’m still getting messages from Jeffries so the House Democrats are still reaching me…they’re just not connecting with me.)
I, too, have contributed to the DCCC, and have been completely turned off by the multitude of emails asking for money (like you, w/no acknowledgement of my previous contributions). I have unsubscribed, but continue to receive daily inflammatory emails asking for more money to help our country avoid the flames of Hell. This is no way to get supporters!!! The Democratic message needs to be one of inclusion and sensibility, and ACTION. I have been a life-long voting Democrat, but have been seriously disillusioned with my party over the past several years.
But The ONE THING that Republicans have proven the masters of being is the ability to lie their asses off to the voting public - and get away with it. this has been going on for decades.
These voters are like the frog in the boiling pot of water. They may never realize what's being done to them - and even if they do, it will be too late for them - and the rest of us.
Zelda, I agree we need to find common ground. Some do not believe this is possible. I do. A starting point is to recognize our own contribution to the polarization, for example, 1- "seeing red" whenever the words Trump, MAGA, or Republican are mentioned, 2- stereotyping as "bad" or "stupid" or "deplorable" those voting for the other party, 3- using ad hominem pejoratives to describe those with whom we disagree, 4- demonizing family, friends and neighbors, community leaders and others -- thus further distancing ourselves from the people and things we care about.
My point is - how can we purport to care about civility, loyalty, kindness, human dignity and generosity if we don't live them? Yes of course we should stand up against deceit, greed, and cruelty. Yet, as we righteously stand up against tyranny, we must take care to hold onto our dearest values in the process. Recognizing our common human frailty and need for one another is foremost.
"I think when the actual hardships start hitting these people, then they will slowly begin to realize that they are being lied to and screwed over by the Republicans."
I think people realized that they were being lied to and screwed over by the Democrats in terms of the economy and the border. We were told the former was great and the latter was secure and neither was true.
"That should happen pretty quickly, as irate Republicans are already showing up at town halls and venting their displeasure..."
It's a safe bet that many of the "irate Republicans" were paid for and shipped in by Democrat-leaning groups.
"Our political parties have demonized the opposing parties for too long and we are now dealing with the results."
Totally agree.
"We have got to find common ground for everyone."
I agree with that as well but we need to find out what most people agree on as "common ground" without the filter of political ideology. Neither the Dems nor Repubs are very good with that.
"It would also help if the mainstream press would report the news in a factual manner, and not just repeat what Trump and his cronies are saying."
Most of the media are firmly in the Democratic camp and have been for as long as I can remember. Some align with Republicans/conservatives, but I can't name a single media outlet that actually plays it down the middle.
"They never fact check in real time and that is a problem."
Who do you trust as "fact checkers":
"Mark Zuckerberg Was Right To Fire Facebook's Rogue Fact-Checkers"
I'm Canadian. I'm aligned with neither party nor am I closed-minded nor incurious. Never having been particularly 'political' I cannot claim to truly understand the 'politics' of this situation. However, from a purely non-political position what I see from up here is that the 'government' created by Musk/Trump- each post filled by the worst of the worst, the cruelest of the cruel, the most astonishingly inept and the most hostile to each of the departments they've been given the responsibility for is horrifying. The only purpose for this seems to be the destruction of these departments from the inside out. To what purpose? Certainly not efficiency nor responsible government.
Whatever your criticisms of the Democratic Party may be that you feel caused them to lose this election, it is not responsible for what the Musk/Trump regime is doing now. Isn't that what needs to be addressed and immediately? Aren't you simply wasting time and effort by focusing on why they lost rather than trying to find some way to save the structure of government in your country? Save your DEMOCRACY? Because the view from up here- and in the eyes of the rest of the world- is that the US is fast becoming a dictatorship, a fascist regime:
'Fascism is a far-right, authoritarian political ideology and movement. It
is characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism,
forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society
and the economy. Under fascism, the government controls the lives of
the people and allows no dissent or disagreement.'
You may blame the Democratic Party for having lost this election but IT isn't the party that is out to destroy democracy and replace it with autocratic rule. Oh, and BTW- Canada is sovereign country that does not want to be part of the US.
"I'm Canadian. I'm aligned with neither party nor am I closed-minded nor incurious."
Yet you were quick to assume I was a Trump supporter.
"However, from a purely non-political position what I see from up here is that the 'government' created by Musk/Trump- each post filled by the worst of the worst..."
And what exactly is your standard for "the best of the best"? Is there a political party that reaches said standard?
"Whatever your criticisms of the Democratic Party may be..."
I don't particularly care for either party, but if the Democrats want to be considered more viable going forward they frankly need to get their collective heads out of their butts and figure out why they lost.
"'Fascism is a far-right, authoritarian political ideology and movement. It
is characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism,
forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society
and the economy. Under fascism, the government controls the lives of
the people and allows no dissent or disagreement.'"
Is fascism any different from communism? Both espouse "authoritarian political ideology, a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and the economy...the government controls the lives of the people and allows no dissent or disagreement." How is it that one is associated with "the right" and the other with "the left"? Both are totalitarian forms of government.
"You may blame the Democratic Party for having lost this election but IT isn't the party that is out to destroy democracy and replace it with autocratic rule."
Okay, lay out your case on how exactly Trump and company are out to destroy democracy and establish autocratic rule.
"Oh, and BTW- Canada is sovereign country that does not want to be part of the US."
BTW - I couldn't care less. Trump is simply trolling you. It's part of who he is and how he operates.
You couldn't care less that your President is threatening to take over my country? Thanks for letting me know. And thank you for illustrating so clearly why the rest of the world should simply walk away.
Let's quit worrying about what Trumpers believe or don't believe. They are not who we need to reach. Trump and the GOP enablers could be easily outvoted with just Dems, the independents and the unmotivated who didn't bother to vote this last election. It's a waste of energy trying to get satisfaction from the cultists. Put your energy where it matters--on all the other people out there.
right on, Bonny. That is what AOC and Bernie and Pritzker and a few others are doing. Speak to a vision supported by widely popular issues - $15 minimum wage, INCREASE Social Security payments, INCREASE Medicaid benefits, make unionization easy, tax the wealthy (including increasing the maximum income amount taxed for Social Security benefits), a federal law protecting abortion rights, and so on. The Dems and Indies would "flood the zone", in a good way!
It is very hard to admit that you were so duped. I doubt that large numbers of Trump supporters have the emotional maturity to do so. Fool me twice . . .
Let's face it. There are a lot of ignorant/stupid/uninformed people in America, and they are Trump's base. These people need to get hurt before they will begin to open their eyes and their minds. Some of them will never see the light no matter how much they are hurt because they are just too deep in the cult. When they are hurt, I will have not one ounce of sympathy for them. My sympathy is reserved for those who didn't vote for this insanity but who are nonetheless being hurt.
I cannot agree that Trump voters need to suffer in order to turn against him. Cult members will excuse anything, and consider it somehow their own fault, or believe whatever explanation Trump offers, no matter how ludicrous. What has to happen is for the Democratic Party to fire its corporate-friendly "strategists" that have lost to Trump twice, and create a new vision that speaks to people's actual problems with real solutions. The popular policies are well known. Pivoting to the right to try and avoid upsetting conservatives is self-destructive and left Dems at home while gaining almost no new votes.
"Let's face it. There are a lot of ignorant/stupid/uninformed people in America, and they are Trump's base."
You need to wake up. If the economy had been better, Dems would have won. If the border was kept secure, Dems would have won. If it came out early that Biden's mental acuity was deteriorating and had been replaced by Harris, Dems might have won. If Dems didn't push DEI/boys in girls sports/transgender anything/"equity"/constant attacks on Trump Dems would have won. We were promised a return to normal because, well, 'Lunch bucket Joe". But that's not what happened.
Too many demographic groups across age, gender and race finally said "enough" and decided to take a chance on Trump along with a fair number of Democrats who were dissatisfied with Harris and stayed home. This was a disaster of the Dems own making but no one is willing to admit it.
Fox "news" and rightwing media have successfully created a cult. Facts cannot be real if they go against the cult's religion. And when these folks have no more Social Security checks or FEMA or SNAP or no more National Parks...they will be assured that Democrats did that to them. And they will believe. Hate will live on, unfortunately.
Provide an alternative for them that's persuasive, that really helps them. Make the effort to fire up the Dems who stayed home, and win elections, and then institute policies that actually help the people who have been seduced. it's a long game, I acknowledge.
78% of Republicans don't believe in viruses, because they're too small to be seen. Or a Chinese hoax. Or both.
74% believe a guy who bankrupted multiple casinos during an economic boom time is an economic genius, because a TV program showed him barking orders and waving his arms around.
70% don't know what causes measles, have no memory (or interest) in polio, smallpox or the Spanish flu.
61% think evolution is "just a theory" but 87% of those still believe in the Virgin Birth.
45% aren't sure about a heliocentric solar system and at least 35% report having a rough time with gravity.
Anecdote alert: A reporter interviewed an unhappy Trump voter on YouTube. She was a naturalized citizen, retired field worker, who depended on Medicaid for her Type 1 diabetes and for her daughter with cerebral palsy. If she'd known then what she knows now, she said, she would never have voted for Trump. When the reporter asked how she would have have voted instead, she said she wouldn't have voted at all.
Unfortunately, it's not just Fox "News". Most of the mainstream news media are owned by corporations and all did their part in "sanewashing" tRump. Fox was always pro tRump. The rest of the media were always creating a false equivalency and the only way to do that was to give tRump and his ilk a legitimacy that they didn't deserve.
Nah, no fortunes or lack thereof, it's Fox News, front and center. No one in the MAGA lot read more than a paragraph throughout the whole duration of the last Congress, maybe even the current century. Frog-march the Murdocks duo to The Hague as arch-enemies of humanity (gen pop only), and presto, no more problems with Canada, no problems with Mexico, no problems with Greenland, or Europe, of fucking Mars. And most importantly no problems with the "uninformed" down my street.
Ok, Jeff, so let’s get real here. You sound perplexed as to the insanity of those dug-in, unbudgeable, inconvincible trump voters and rightly so when you are using the yardstick traditionally used by flailing but sane Democrats. Let me take a stab at shifting the paradigm for viewing why his voters do what they do. I’ve been saying this for a decade or more but here goes one more try:
1. trump voters vote for him BECAUSE OF WHO HE IS not in spite of who he is. No amount of reasonable arguing or evidence or facts will get through to them because they like who he is. They share his rampant, venal misogyny and racism and are willing to personally ’suffer’ a kind of weird martyrdom when he takes away their safety net because the people they think are undeserving are losing out as well. Or they just don't believe he actually means he will do it to them. Or both.
2. trump voters are embarrassed about their misogyny and racism so they tell bald-faced lies when they say the economy is their most important issue. They really only care about making especially sure those uppity women and Black and Brown folks don’t have any of the power that they believe is meant exclusively for straight white male ‘christians’.
3. But the crux of the whole thing (pun intended) is that these people are primed from birth to believe in the invisible impossible, ie, gawd, and to revel in their 'suffering' for it. Religion is their mass delusion and when they are sold on that first all-consuming scam, they are easy pickings for the next shiny con that comes along, in this case trump et al.
4. No amount of reasoning will ever change what they believe because then they would have to question the insanity and delusion that is fundamental to who they are.
5. faux noise greedily reinforces what they hear from their charlatans' pulpits every Sunday and more, so they feel vindicated in believing the lies and telling more lies themselves.
6. Finally, follow the money and the sex; they all secretly expect to get more of both under trump. That’s why they are not disturbed about having a rapist in the White House and in other of the highest positions in our government. In fact, they think such behavior is to be tolerated if not outright encouraged. (See eg, Tate, Andrew; Epstein, Jeffrey; et al.) Juss boyss beingk boyss, you know, and the girls have it coming.
You will never get to the bottom of this insanity and it is a fool's errand to try. If this all sounds muddled and contradictory, that’s because it is. It’s absolutely crazy. It is, in the most literal use of the word, nonsense. If we are going to save our country we just need to educate those who are open to learning, motivate them to pass it on, and then out vote the ones who still choose the insanity. That is all. Hoping against hope for anything else is a complete waste of time and energy.
And, good grief -- stop asking them what their top issue is and buying their BS when they say 'the economy'.
I've been saying for years that evolution is working in reverse in America. People are getting stupider every year. I have yet to see anything to prove me wrong.
As dawn breaks over the darkness that entombs the (presumably working) brains of MAGA voters--when Trump's reckless incompetence and Musk's haphazard chainsawing damage programs affecting themselves--maybe they will realize they've been conned. But Fox "News" and the right-wing bubbles they dwell in have done what they were meant to do: deceive and dumb down the easily deceived and dumb. Meanwhile, the Democrats can't figure out how to market their evidence-based ideas and tell their own stories in human, not hyper-intellectual, terms that people relate to.
“ Who in their right mind would think that Trump—who denounces and threatens Democrats from his bully pulpit on a daily basis—is more trustworthy when it comes to reaching across the political aisle?”
I think you’ve answered your own question.
Sadly, the voting majority of the U.S. is NOT in “their right mind”. And….the whole world can clearly see this fault. And……they will….and do……treat us accordingly.
I hope that the cause is Ignorance……and not Stupidity. Because, Ignorance can be cured. Stupidity cannot.
For many people, being an unquestioning supporter of Trump and Republicans has become integral to their identity, their sense of who they are. To ask them to vote for a Democrat, is too much to ask. If they are hurt by Trump and the Republicans, they will believe it didn’t happen, or that they deserved it, or someone else is to blame. The Democrats must pursue the shrinking population that lives in reality. Incidentally, being detached from reality is the definition of psychosis. America is becoming increasingly psychotic.
Mr. Nesbit: In light of your deep experience, as noted in your Bio, I was surprised that, after reviewing in detail the sad results of the Blue Rose Research "post-mortem", you offered zero explanation for why Democrats have so wretchedly botched communicating with voters, allowing a full-time liar to be believed, and zero recommendations for how to correct this pathetic inability to win an election against an ignorant, lying, cruel, self-dealing narcissist whose record as President the first time was dismal and marked by multiple major failures (while his second term is already entering absolute disaster territory, with no guarantee that another fair election will ever happen).
To be frank, Mr. Nesbit, of what benefit is your deep knowledge and impressive Bio if your only advice to Democrats is "Well, you are really going to have to do better!"?
Meanwhile, I see what is working - a mass groundswell of support for AOC and Bernie Sanders speaking plainly about policies that are widely popular, as opposed to campaigning with the Cheneys, trying to find a moderate Republican to vote Democratic, while leaving actual Democrats convinced that the Democratic Party is ignoring them and they might as well stay home or even, as crazy as it may seem, vote for Trump, which is exactly what they did.
"Mr. Nesbit: In light of your deep experience, as noted in your Bio, I was surprised that, after reviewing in detail the sad results of the Blue Rose Research "post-mortem", you offered zero explanation for why Democrats have so wretchedly botched communicating with voters..."
Totally agree, and this might help:
"Kamala Harris would have lost even if every voter had turned up: Report"
"What is 'american bazaar online'? never heard of it."
Me either until now. Maybe you should check for their credentials...
The report they are quoting from is the same Blue Rose Research that Mr. Nesbit opened his column with. David Shor is in charge. You would know that had you bothered to read the article.
I think when the actual hardships start hitting these people, then they will slowly begin to realize that they are being lied to and screwed over by the Republicans. That should happen pretty quickly, as irate Republicans are already showing up at town halls and venting their displeasure, whether their representative is there or not. I too, am astounded by the absolute ignorance and complacency that I see in too many voters as I listen to the comments at work. Also the lack of empathy for others, especially if they are from different races and cultures is pretty appalling. As a whole, I don't think we are in any way a progressive country or open to changes that need to be made for our country and our planet. Our national reputation is taking a real hit, and deservedly so. To say the Democrats have a lot of work to do is a huge understatement, but you cannot keep blaming the one party who is trying to do the right thing in most cases. The information is out there on all issues facing our country and our planet, but you cannot educate those who refuse to acknowledge any of this. Their beliefs are not based on any logical thinking or real circumstances. Our political parties have demonized the opposing parties for too long and we are now dealing with the results. Its them vs. us, and until this changes and Americans stop seeing other Americans as the enemy, nothing will change. That is why the extremists in the Republican Party are doing so well. We have got to find common ground for everyone. That is the message the Democrats need to be communicating. It would also help if the mainstream press would report the news in a factual manner, and not just repeat what Trump and his cronies are saying. They never fact check in real time and that is a problem. That normalizes extreme behavior, and is helping Trumps agenda to succeed.
"We have got to find common ground for everyone."
So where is that common ground? Do we agree to deport people without a hearing? Do we agree to close Social Security offices, but not as many? Do we agree to cut 400 billion from Medicaid instead of 800 million? And can we actually get the republicans to agree to anything but demonizing Democrats? They are bent on destroying the country. How do we compromise with that? You have magical thinking. The republicans are not a group that can be worked with.
I agree that we cannot find common ground with extreme ideology. There are a lot of Republicans who are not in the MAGA camp. My brother-in-law for one. He is opposed to many of the issues above but voted for Trump regardless because he thinks the Democrats are too off base about everything. That is what I mean about common ground. I too think all of the above is horrific, that is why I have been a life long Democrat. I just think we need to make the Democrat profile more palatable to other voters. If we cant admit that than we are not going to win elections anymore.
Nope. They will never blame republicans and trump. They will just blame it all on Biden and Harris and Obama and anyone else trump says to blame.
And… common ground on what exactly?? Women bleeding to death in hospital parking lots because docs are afraid they will go to jail if they do a medically needed abortion? Or maybe a violent insurrection in our Capitol? Or how about abandoning toxic waste clean-ups? Replacing lead pipes in cities? letting our public schools fall down? You absolutely cannot and should not have common ground with fascists.
It is impossible to ‘fact check’ trump's fire hose of lies in real time but you are right that the MSP is complicit in his coup.
I think the bottom line is that we need to (re)build trust in the Democratic Party. Since I have little faith that can happen before it's too late, I hope we see a third party rise up out of groups like this and others like it.
Democrats have failed in their outreach to voters. We talk about “the message” we need to communicate. We don’t talk enough about reaching out so that communication goes both ways. Democrats have abandoned red states to republicans. Voters there have never interacted with a Democrat with “the message,” according to one of Jen Rubin’s interviewees. When they do, people are open because it’s a good message.
Black turnout in Chicago for the presidential election (and a Black candidate) was poor. Democrats knew they would win Illinois so they didn’t reach out. Meanwhile, the party recruited many Chicagoans to canvass in Wisconsin and work phone banks for that swing state. The reaction of Black voters in urban areas there? You come to us when you want our vote, but where are you at other times? They are not wrong. I would be more motivated to knock on doors here in Chicago where I live than in Milwaukee, so the party misses making that connection as well.
In education, it is highly problematic—unethical—to focus on teaching students whose achievement on tests will ensure you get positive accountability ratings. What about the other students?
It is thought to be strategic to give money only to candidates who have a chance of winning—to flip the house, or senate, etc. Everyone seems to buy into this idea.
I would like to see the Democrats start connecting with voters for purposes other than to win the next important election.
Adding to my comment: Democratic fundraising feels totally one way too. I made a monthly contribution to the DCCC. I tend to avoid monthly giving. Yet I keep getting bombarded with fundraising appeals as if I have never given. This makes me want to reconsider my monthly contribution, but I don’t know where to direct my money if I’m interested in the kind of outreach I describe. The organization Force Multiplier is all about investing in candidates that can win. I want to invest in candidates that will reach out. (I unsubscribed to the DCCC, which I try not to do—I want to remain open to the messaging. But it really bothered me that there was no recognition of my ongoing support. I’m still getting messages from Jeffries so the House Democrats are still reaching me…they’re just not connecting with me.)
I, too, have contributed to the DCCC, and have been completely turned off by the multitude of emails asking for money (like you, w/no acknowledgement of my previous contributions). I have unsubscribed, but continue to receive daily inflammatory emails asking for more money to help our country avoid the flames of Hell. This is no way to get supporters!!! The Democratic message needs to be one of inclusion and sensibility, and ACTION. I have been a life-long voting Democrat, but have been seriously disillusioned with my party over the past several years.
I wish I could agree.
But The ONE THING that Republicans have proven the masters of being is the ability to lie their asses off to the voting public - and get away with it. this has been going on for decades.
These voters are like the frog in the boiling pot of water. They may never realize what's being done to them - and even if they do, it will be too late for them - and the rest of us.
Zelda, I agree we need to find common ground. Some do not believe this is possible. I do. A starting point is to recognize our own contribution to the polarization, for example, 1- "seeing red" whenever the words Trump, MAGA, or Republican are mentioned, 2- stereotyping as "bad" or "stupid" or "deplorable" those voting for the other party, 3- using ad hominem pejoratives to describe those with whom we disagree, 4- demonizing family, friends and neighbors, community leaders and others -- thus further distancing ourselves from the people and things we care about.
My point is - how can we purport to care about civility, loyalty, kindness, human dignity and generosity if we don't live them? Yes of course we should stand up against deceit, greed, and cruelty. Yet, as we righteously stand up against tyranny, we must take care to hold onto our dearest values in the process. Recognizing our common human frailty and need for one another is foremost.
"I think when the actual hardships start hitting these people, then they will slowly begin to realize that they are being lied to and screwed over by the Republicans."
I think people realized that they were being lied to and screwed over by the Democrats in terms of the economy and the border. We were told the former was great and the latter was secure and neither was true.
"That should happen pretty quickly, as irate Republicans are already showing up at town halls and venting their displeasure..."
It's a safe bet that many of the "irate Republicans" were paid for and shipped in by Democrat-leaning groups.
"Our political parties have demonized the opposing parties for too long and we are now dealing with the results."
Totally agree.
"We have got to find common ground for everyone."
I agree with that as well but we need to find out what most people agree on as "common ground" without the filter of political ideology. Neither the Dems nor Repubs are very good with that.
"It would also help if the mainstream press would report the news in a factual manner, and not just repeat what Trump and his cronies are saying."
Most of the media are firmly in the Democratic camp and have been for as long as I can remember. Some align with Republicans/conservatives, but I can't name a single media outlet that actually plays it down the middle.
"They never fact check in real time and that is a problem."
Who do you trust as "fact checkers":
"Mark Zuckerberg Was Right To Fire Facebook's Rogue Fact-Checkers"
https://reason.com/2025/01/07/mark-zuckerberg-meta-facebook-fact-checkers-censorship/
So. This is what the distortion of reality by a Trump supporter actually looks like.
Indeed.
"This is what the distortion of reality by a Trump supporter actually looks like."
This is what an independent with a curious mind looks like. You may be too aligned with DLP (Dems/Libs/Progressives) views to notice.
I'm Canadian. I'm aligned with neither party nor am I closed-minded nor incurious. Never having been particularly 'political' I cannot claim to truly understand the 'politics' of this situation. However, from a purely non-political position what I see from up here is that the 'government' created by Musk/Trump- each post filled by the worst of the worst, the cruelest of the cruel, the most astonishingly inept and the most hostile to each of the departments they've been given the responsibility for is horrifying. The only purpose for this seems to be the destruction of these departments from the inside out. To what purpose? Certainly not efficiency nor responsible government.
Whatever your criticisms of the Democratic Party may be that you feel caused them to lose this election, it is not responsible for what the Musk/Trump regime is doing now. Isn't that what needs to be addressed and immediately? Aren't you simply wasting time and effort by focusing on why they lost rather than trying to find some way to save the structure of government in your country? Save your DEMOCRACY? Because the view from up here- and in the eyes of the rest of the world- is that the US is fast becoming a dictatorship, a fascist regime:
'Fascism is a far-right, authoritarian political ideology and movement. It
is characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism,
forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society
and the economy. Under fascism, the government controls the lives of
the people and allows no dissent or disagreement.'
You may blame the Democratic Party for having lost this election but IT isn't the party that is out to destroy democracy and replace it with autocratic rule. Oh, and BTW- Canada is sovereign country that does not want to be part of the US.
"I'm Canadian. I'm aligned with neither party nor am I closed-minded nor incurious."
Yet you were quick to assume I was a Trump supporter.
"However, from a purely non-political position what I see from up here is that the 'government' created by Musk/Trump- each post filled by the worst of the worst..."
And what exactly is your standard for "the best of the best"? Is there a political party that reaches said standard?
"Whatever your criticisms of the Democratic Party may be..."
I don't particularly care for either party, but if the Democrats want to be considered more viable going forward they frankly need to get their collective heads out of their butts and figure out why they lost.
"'Fascism is a far-right, authoritarian political ideology and movement. It
is characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism,
forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society
and the economy. Under fascism, the government controls the lives of
the people and allows no dissent or disagreement.'"
Is fascism any different from communism? Both espouse "authoritarian political ideology, a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and the economy...the government controls the lives of the people and allows no dissent or disagreement." How is it that one is associated with "the right" and the other with "the left"? Both are totalitarian forms of government.
"You may blame the Democratic Party for having lost this election but IT isn't the party that is out to destroy democracy and replace it with autocratic rule."
Okay, lay out your case on how exactly Trump and company are out to destroy democracy and establish autocratic rule.
"Oh, and BTW- Canada is sovereign country that does not want to be part of the US."
BTW - I couldn't care less. Trump is simply trolling you. It's part of who he is and how he operates.
You couldn't care less that your President is threatening to take over my country? Thanks for letting me know. And thank you for illustrating so clearly why the rest of the world should simply walk away.
Let's quit worrying about what Trumpers believe or don't believe. They are not who we need to reach. Trump and the GOP enablers could be easily outvoted with just Dems, the independents and the unmotivated who didn't bother to vote this last election. It's a waste of energy trying to get satisfaction from the cultists. Put your energy where it matters--on all the other people out there.
right on, Bonny. That is what AOC and Bernie and Pritzker and a few others are doing. Speak to a vision supported by widely popular issues - $15 minimum wage, INCREASE Social Security payments, INCREASE Medicaid benefits, make unionization easy, tax the wealthy (including increasing the maximum income amount taxed for Social Security benefits), a federal law protecting abortion rights, and so on. The Dems and Indies would "flood the zone", in a good way!
That’s what I keep saying, voter apathy for Trump elected
It is very hard to admit that you were so duped. I doubt that large numbers of Trump supporters have the emotional maturity to do so. Fool me twice . . .
Let's face it. There are a lot of ignorant/stupid/uninformed people in America, and they are Trump's base. These people need to get hurt before they will begin to open their eyes and their minds. Some of them will never see the light no matter how much they are hurt because they are just too deep in the cult. When they are hurt, I will have not one ounce of sympathy for them. My sympathy is reserved for those who didn't vote for this insanity but who are nonetheless being hurt.
I cannot agree that Trump voters need to suffer in order to turn against him. Cult members will excuse anything, and consider it somehow their own fault, or believe whatever explanation Trump offers, no matter how ludicrous. What has to happen is for the Democratic Party to fire its corporate-friendly "strategists" that have lost to Trump twice, and create a new vision that speaks to people's actual problems with real solutions. The popular policies are well known. Pivoting to the right to try and avoid upsetting conservatives is self-destructive and left Dems at home while gaining almost no new votes.
"Let's face it. There are a lot of ignorant/stupid/uninformed people in America, and they are Trump's base."
You need to wake up. If the economy had been better, Dems would have won. If the border was kept secure, Dems would have won. If it came out early that Biden's mental acuity was deteriorating and had been replaced by Harris, Dems might have won. If Dems didn't push DEI/boys in girls sports/transgender anything/"equity"/constant attacks on Trump Dems would have won. We were promised a return to normal because, well, 'Lunch bucket Joe". But that's not what happened.
Too many demographic groups across age, gender and race finally said "enough" and decided to take a chance on Trump along with a fair number of Democrats who were dissatisfied with Harris and stayed home. This was a disaster of the Dems own making but no one is willing to admit it.
Fox "news" and rightwing media have successfully created a cult. Facts cannot be real if they go against the cult's religion. And when these folks have no more Social Security checks or FEMA or SNAP or no more National Parks...they will be assured that Democrats did that to them. And they will believe. Hate will live on, unfortunately.
I fear you are correct. There needs to be a deprogramming effort though I have no idea how we would even approach that.
I think Bernie Sanders and AOC may have found a chink in their armor. But I don't know how to use that.
Provide an alternative for them that's persuasive, that really helps them. Make the effort to fire up the Dems who stayed home, and win elections, and then institute policies that actually help the people who have been seduced. it's a long game, I acknowledge.
That’s why it’s called the party of Gaslighting Our People GOP
👍!
👏👏👏!!!
78% of Republicans don't believe in viruses, because they're too small to be seen. Or a Chinese hoax. Or both.
74% believe a guy who bankrupted multiple casinos during an economic boom time is an economic genius, because a TV program showed him barking orders and waving his arms around.
70% don't know what causes measles, have no memory (or interest) in polio, smallpox or the Spanish flu.
61% think evolution is "just a theory" but 87% of those still believe in the Virgin Birth.
45% aren't sure about a heliocentric solar system and at least 35% report having a rough time with gravity.
Anecdote alert: A reporter interviewed an unhappy Trump voter on YouTube. She was a naturalized citizen, retired field worker, who depended on Medicaid for her Type 1 diabetes and for her daughter with cerebral palsy. If she'd known then what she knows now, she said, she would never have voted for Trump. When the reporter asked how she would have have voted instead, she said she wouldn't have voted at all.
SMH
“Stupid is as Stupid does”
There you go.
Disheartening, maybe when these gaslit voters actually experience the loss of what they value, they’ll become closer to reality?
rather, how about shutting down Fox News by any means necessary...
Unfortunately, it's not just Fox "News". Most of the mainstream news media are owned by corporations and all did their part in "sanewashing" tRump. Fox was always pro tRump. The rest of the media were always creating a false equivalency and the only way to do that was to give tRump and his ilk a legitimacy that they didn't deserve.
Nah, no fortunes or lack thereof, it's Fox News, front and center. No one in the MAGA lot read more than a paragraph throughout the whole duration of the last Congress, maybe even the current century. Frog-march the Murdocks duo to The Hague as arch-enemies of humanity (gen pop only), and presto, no more problems with Canada, no problems with Mexico, no problems with Greenland, or Europe, of fucking Mars. And most importantly no problems with the "uninformed" down my street.
Sad but true
Ok, Jeff, so let’s get real here. You sound perplexed as to the insanity of those dug-in, unbudgeable, inconvincible trump voters and rightly so when you are using the yardstick traditionally used by flailing but sane Democrats. Let me take a stab at shifting the paradigm for viewing why his voters do what they do. I’ve been saying this for a decade or more but here goes one more try:
1. trump voters vote for him BECAUSE OF WHO HE IS not in spite of who he is. No amount of reasonable arguing or evidence or facts will get through to them because they like who he is. They share his rampant, venal misogyny and racism and are willing to personally ’suffer’ a kind of weird martyrdom when he takes away their safety net because the people they think are undeserving are losing out as well. Or they just don't believe he actually means he will do it to them. Or both.
2. trump voters are embarrassed about their misogyny and racism so they tell bald-faced lies when they say the economy is their most important issue. They really only care about making especially sure those uppity women and Black and Brown folks don’t have any of the power that they believe is meant exclusively for straight white male ‘christians’.
3. But the crux of the whole thing (pun intended) is that these people are primed from birth to believe in the invisible impossible, ie, gawd, and to revel in their 'suffering' for it. Religion is their mass delusion and when they are sold on that first all-consuming scam, they are easy pickings for the next shiny con that comes along, in this case trump et al.
4. No amount of reasoning will ever change what they believe because then they would have to question the insanity and delusion that is fundamental to who they are.
5. faux noise greedily reinforces what they hear from their charlatans' pulpits every Sunday and more, so they feel vindicated in believing the lies and telling more lies themselves.
6. Finally, follow the money and the sex; they all secretly expect to get more of both under trump. That’s why they are not disturbed about having a rapist in the White House and in other of the highest positions in our government. In fact, they think such behavior is to be tolerated if not outright encouraged. (See eg, Tate, Andrew; Epstein, Jeffrey; et al.) Juss boyss beingk boyss, you know, and the girls have it coming.
You will never get to the bottom of this insanity and it is a fool's errand to try. If this all sounds muddled and contradictory, that’s because it is. It’s absolutely crazy. It is, in the most literal use of the word, nonsense. If we are going to save our country we just need to educate those who are open to learning, motivate them to pass it on, and then out vote the ones who still choose the insanity. That is all. Hoping against hope for anything else is a complete waste of time and energy.
And, good grief -- stop asking them what their top issue is and buying their BS when they say 'the economy'.
I've been saying for years that evolution is working in reverse in America. People are getting stupider every year. I have yet to see anything to prove me wrong.
As dawn breaks over the darkness that entombs the (presumably working) brains of MAGA voters--when Trump's reckless incompetence and Musk's haphazard chainsawing damage programs affecting themselves--maybe they will realize they've been conned. But Fox "News" and the right-wing bubbles they dwell in have done what they were meant to do: deceive and dumb down the easily deceived and dumb. Meanwhile, the Democrats can't figure out how to market their evidence-based ideas and tell their own stories in human, not hyper-intellectual, terms that people relate to.
“ Who in their right mind would think that Trump—who denounces and threatens Democrats from his bully pulpit on a daily basis—is more trustworthy when it comes to reaching across the political aisle?”
I think you’ve answered your own question.
Sadly, the voting majority of the U.S. is NOT in “their right mind”. And….the whole world can clearly see this fault. And……they will….and do……treat us accordingly.
I hope that the cause is Ignorance……and not Stupidity. Because, Ignorance can be cured. Stupidity cannot.
Holy cow. Plato's Cave has nothing on the right wing's media ecosystem.
For many people, being an unquestioning supporter of Trump and Republicans has become integral to their identity, their sense of who they are. To ask them to vote for a Democrat, is too much to ask. If they are hurt by Trump and the Republicans, they will believe it didn’t happen, or that they deserved it, or someone else is to blame. The Democrats must pursue the shrinking population that lives in reality. Incidentally, being detached from reality is the definition of psychosis. America is becoming increasingly psychotic.
I have written this to Mr Nesbit at his website:
Mr. Nesbit: In light of your deep experience, as noted in your Bio, I was surprised that, after reviewing in detail the sad results of the Blue Rose Research "post-mortem", you offered zero explanation for why Democrats have so wretchedly botched communicating with voters, allowing a full-time liar to be believed, and zero recommendations for how to correct this pathetic inability to win an election against an ignorant, lying, cruel, self-dealing narcissist whose record as President the first time was dismal and marked by multiple major failures (while his second term is already entering absolute disaster territory, with no guarantee that another fair election will ever happen).
To be frank, Mr. Nesbit, of what benefit is your deep knowledge and impressive Bio if your only advice to Democrats is "Well, you are really going to have to do better!"?
Meanwhile, I see what is working - a mass groundswell of support for AOC and Bernie Sanders speaking plainly about policies that are widely popular, as opposed to campaigning with the Cheneys, trying to find a moderate Republican to vote Democratic, while leaving actual Democrats convinced that the Democratic Party is ignoring them and they might as well stay home or even, as crazy as it may seem, vote for Trump, which is exactly what they did.
"Mr. Nesbit: In light of your deep experience, as noted in your Bio, I was surprised that, after reviewing in detail the sad results of the Blue Rose Research "post-mortem", you offered zero explanation for why Democrats have so wretchedly botched communicating with voters..."
Totally agree, and this might help:
"Kamala Harris would have lost even if every voter had turned up: Report"
https://americanbazaaronline.com/2025/03/19/kamala-harris-would-have-lost-even-if-every-voter-had-turned-up-460915/
What is 'american bazaar online'? never heard of it. It’s important to consider the quality of sources when citing.
"What is 'american bazaar online'? never heard of it."
Me either until now. Maybe you should check for their credentials...
The report they are quoting from is the same Blue Rose Research that Mr. Nesbit opened his column with. David Shor is in charge. You would know that had you bothered to read the article.