This past Saturday, a gunman—who remains at large—opened fire on Brown University's campus. Two students are dead and nine others injured. In a country suffering from an epidemic of gun violence, (Sunday was the 13th anniversary of the Sandy Hook school shooting) it can be easy to fall into hopelessness.
But, as Angela Ferrell-Zabala, Executive Director of Moms Demand Action, reminds us, there is so much work that needs to be done. Together, Jen and Ferell-Zabala discuss the contrast between Australia and America in their respond to mass shootings, the U.S.’s ineffective ‘thoughts and prayers’ strategy, and accountability for the gun industry’s role in the violence.
To learn more about Moms Demand Action, go here.
Angela Ferrell-Zabala has served as Moms Demand Action’s first-ever Executive Director since 2023. She’s a lifelong community organizer passionate about bringing people together and is a Washington, DC-based mom of four. In her role, Angela leads Everytown’s grassroots advocacy efforts of Moms Demand Action and Students Demand Action and oversees our vision for the next decade of our life-saving advocacy.
The following transcript has been edited for formatting.
Jen Rubin
Hi, this is Jen Rubin, Editor-in-Chief of the Contrarian. I’m delighted to have with us Angela Ferrell-Zabala, who, of course, is Head of Moms Demand Action. Angela, welcome, good to see you.
Angela
Thank you, Jen, so much for having me today.
Jen Rubin
You know, it’s not only the incident at Brown and in Australia, and of course, the tragic death of Rob Reiner and his wife. We were talking just before going on about kind of the mental toll. Talk to us a little bit about, this sense of unreality that descends when these tragic things kind of jolt us and really affect us in profound ways, even if we don’t have a connection to any of the individuals involved.
Angela
Yeah, I mean, I’m so glad you asked that question. I really believe that this contributes to the collective kind of trauma around gun violence in our country. You know, before we went live here, we were just chatting a little bit, and one thing I said is when I got the news of this, I was sitting in my living room. comfortable, snuggled up, the kids, like, looking at them, you know, thinking about things like, oh my lord, I cannot believe here we are again. Every year, I know when Christmas lands, but I’m behind somehow. But, you know, our trees are decorated, the cat’s batting ornaments off the tree, the dog is barking to get out, and it’s, like, the beautiful chaos of, like, the holidays that you kind of nestle into, and you I just imagine so many other families, it was like. you know, the eve of, like, Hanukkah, the first night of Hanukkah. So many other families are gathering with their loved ones, are figuring out, like, what it is I’m doing through the end of the year as far as, like, closing out this year, stepping into a brand new year.
And we’re well aware that we have gun violence in this country, but you just think that you can have a moment of just joy and peace, and so it’s very unsettling and very disturbing when that kind of thing kind of comes in and rocks your world. And that is just an example of one tragedy that we were… well, you named several that happened, over the course of the weekend, but there’s so many others that didn’t even make a story. So, it is… it’s really difficult. It’s really difficult, to do that and keep moving forward sometimes.
Jen Rubin
It is. We are now having a generation of young people who have been through multiple instances. There’s a young woman who spoke very movingly, she was at Parkland, and now at Brown, we had another student who was at Parkland, and then Michigan, Michigan State. Talk to us about What this does to the psyche, not only of those people who go through it, but just, again, young people who go off to college, or they’re in school, and the sense of almost impending doom, and perpetual doom, that, you know, it’s not like you’ve survived it once, you never have to worry about it again.
Angela
Right, and I, you know. they shouldn’t even have to have survived it once, right? And I think that all that it takes as a survivor of gun violence to pull yourself back up, to even step into this place of advocacy, and many young people, as you kind of mentioned. that were impacted find themselves in a place of, now I have to advocate so no one else, none of my peers, no one else has to feel this kind of devastation, but here we are. Shouldn’t happen once, let alone twice. And the fact that some of these students are now survivors of multiple school shootings is absolutely gut-wrenching, and it really is an indictment of America’s failure to protect its children. This should not be the case at all. And some of the folks that you named are—you kind of alluded to—I have relationships with some of those incredible young people, young leaders and families, and it’s just really hard. And as a mother of four children myself.
You know, I can only imagine not only the young people feeling like, my goodness, is there any place sacred, is there any place I can be safe? Even when I’m advocating and helping to pass good policy, this is still a thing, but also as parents, like, it’s always this idea of, like, how do I protect my child when they’re out of my… out of my, kind of, out of my range, when I send them off to school, when I send them out into the community, how do I make sure that they’re safe? So it is… it’s horrendous. I will say there’s lots that we can do about this to make sure that we’re preventing this kind of tragedy from happening in the first place.
Jen Rubin
Absolutely, and let’s go there next. It was fascinating to me that when this horrific massacre happened in Australia, there was, of course, an embrace, it was an emotional response. But immediately, the government said, we’re now going to take certain actions, and they already have gun laws. They already had a very successful gun buyback program. And yet, in the United States, there’s this disconnect. Somehow, it’s poor form to talk about, actually solving the problem, and then later on, it’s too late. Or we nitpick the specifics of this situation and say, well, this gun law wouldn’t have stopped this situation. Talk to us about how we reconnect, how we turn these tragedies, finally, into some kind of action, and maybe where it’s being done, even if it’s on the state level or in other places.
Angela
Well, that’s a great question, and a lot has been done over the course of the 13 years that Moms Demand Action has, been around. Look, I’d be remiss if I did not mention that this was also… took place on the eve of our 13-year mark for the Sandy Hook. When we had kindergartners, first graders, and teachers that were massacred, which was an impetus for this organization. So I… I would just say, you know, it is… it’s one of those things that, It’s… it’s almost unbelievable, you said, like, we’re in a place where our children, the leading cause of death for young people in this country are guns, not childhood cancer, not car accidents. What does it say about us as a nation when we don’t get our heads around that together, regardless of your political identity, regardless of your zip code, where you live, we should all agree that this should not be a leading cause of death for children?
This should not be interrupting these young people’s futures and what they could be striving to do because of the trauma. Now, this is… or in many cases. lives that are stolen, right? So, it really bothers me as a person of deep faith To hear folks just stop with this idea, like, we’re just gonna pray, we’re just gonna think about it and pray. That is highly offensive to somebody who really does feel a connection to God and faith like I do, because I know that, faith without works is absolutely dead. We can’t just wish it away. We can’t just pray and then go about our day. How do you go to sleep at night? When you’re thinking that this could be prevented, we must do everything in our power.
So, you know, I, like you said, the contrast between Australia, where absolutely, they said, we’re gonna get right on this, to us waiting, and like you said, too many lives are stolen in that waiting place. We gotta keep moving forward. We do have the solutions. We know what we can do to stop this. too many guns in the hands of people that should not have them. And there are common sense, basic policies that we have been working on, that we pass many. Some of the things that I love to just highlight, so folks don’t think, if they’re hearing this with kind of gloom and doom.
Yes, we have a gun violence public health crisis in this country, and we’ve been doing a lot in the 13 years that Moms Demand Action, but, you know, even beyond that. And some of the things that I want to lift up is, first of all, in Rhode Island alone, last year, or this year, I’m mixed up on my years, 2025, we’re not in 26 yet, 2025, we passed an assault weapons bill, and this was a 10 years in the making. It’s very, very important that we were able to get this across the finish line, and some might say, well, you know, we passed it, so what’s going on? First thing I would say is that we’re still, you know, the information’s coming in, it’s still unfolding, we don’t know a lot about the person or a lot of details, but what I will say is that Rhode Island ranks 13th when it comes to gun safety, not number one. And if you’re not number one, that means there’s still lots of work to be done.
So there’s work that has been done there, and they’re going to keep moving to do more to prevent tragedies like this. We had California that passed You know, it’s red and blue states. Let’s talk about California blue state. It passed the first law in America banning the sale of pistols that can easily be turned into illegal do-it-yourself machine guns. And if you think that’s, like, okay, it’s California, we had volunteers working hard in Mississippi, Alabama, and Tennessee to do the same thing so that they could ban machine gun conversion devices. So, we’re doing, like, those are just, like, simple ways that we’re pointing to this.
Another thing I would say is, we’re electing a lot more people that are fighting for gun safety as part of their platform, and it’s a winning issue now. So yes, it feels like a lot. A lot still needs to be done, and we need a lot more partnership from where it comes to gun industry and business and across party lines. We need everyone to dive into this crisis so that we can all be safe, because it will meet any of us at any place at any time, and so we need to be working on this.
Jen Rubin
And we know certain things work, because we can look at states with tough gun laws, and look at states with lax gun laws, and the incidents, we always think in terms of homicide, but also suicide. Accidental deaths. What are some of the things that those states that are in the top 5 have done that other states, and obviously the federal government can look to to implement?
Angela
One of the things that I am always, like, it feels like a very low-hanging fruit and really easy, but it does save lives, is secure storage. Making sure if you are a gun owner, which we have amongst us, we have gun owners, non-gun owners, parents, not parents, faith leaders, veterans, that’s why we’re every town, right? We are representing every single corner of this country. And when we talk about secure storage, what we’re saying is that you have a right to have a firearm. When you have the background check, you have everything, so that you can be a gun owner, then the next thing that you should be doing is thinking about how you’re securely storing that, so that a child or someone that doesn’t have, shouldn’t have access to that gun, even criminals. does not have access to that firearm.
When we think about unintentional shootings, we think about young people. Sometimes they’re finding, you know, they’re tucked a gun away somewhere, a parent. And they can find Christmas presents, Jen, so they can certainly find where you tuck your gun. And we’ve heard too many tragedies about unintentional shootings that end up taking the life of that young person or someone else, or harming someone else. Sometimes they can take those guns and take them in other places, onto campus, in schools. This is why we need secure storage.
We also have this rise in folks leaving their guns in the glove box of their car. And then there’s break-ins to cars, and they’re not looking for your cell phone or money, they’re looking for that firearm, and it becomes a crime gun. So simply thinking about how we are Making sure we’re mandating secure storage of firearms is one way that states across this country are doing the incredible work of keeping their communities safe.
Jen Rubin
Red flag laws are another option. Talk to us about those and how those have helped reduce the murder, suicide, accidental, gun violence rates.
Angela
Yes, so when we think about a red flag law, we think about someone that might be at risk of harming themselves or others. We also do this work, when we talk about red flag laws, there’s plenty of places across this country. I think we have over 21 states, that have passed these incredibly important laws, and once they’re passed, I think the next step is to make sure that they’re implemented and that people are educated enough that they can actually access this really important tool. So what it would do is temporarily remove a firearm while someone’s in crisis so they can get the help that they need and they can be returned.
We know that if we don’t have these kinds of interventions, we do see a rise in things like gun suicides, if someone is struggling, then they don’t have that, you know, taking that time, taking that beat, not having something, a deadly firearm, that the fatality rate is so much higher, because sometimes I hear people talk about, well, suicide, if they’re already ideating, then it’s going to happen. No. The fatality of a firearm—we want to give that person a chance to get the help that they need, so that’s a big deal. the unintentional shootings, making sure, like I said, that’s really important as well.
So those are the two things that we’re really looking at, and when I look at red flags, I also think about, we work closely with veteran communities. And when folks are in crisis, when people are, struggling, whether it’s PTSD, other things, this is a thing that’s so important for them, to have someone that can see that they’re struggling and be able to intervene so that they have a chance. They have a chance to get the help that they need. So I’m so glad that you mentioned those, because those are… that’s a very important, you know, again, I’m calling this low-hanging fruit, but, like, I think it’s, like, a common sense gun safety law that saves a lot of lives. And when we think beyond gun homicide, think about gun suicide, we also think about domestic violence. Those are really important factors and steps that can help keep communities safe.
Jen Rubin
Absolutely. Give us just a couple more of the common gun laws that have been passed in states that do help.
Angela
Yeah, so there’s a couple other things. Like, one thing I think we don’t talk enough about this, but, we’ve seen the decline in some of this over this past year and under this administration, but we, also make sure that there’s investment in community-led organizations that are doing, violence intervention work on the ground. That is so important, because sometimes we see in community cycles of violence. And whether this is the street violence intervention programs, whether it’s hospital violence intervention programs that will help to kind of intervene and make sure that the services are given to people so that they can heal, take that trauma, and prevent, the kind of the next round of violence that may come from that. So that’s really important.
We work very closely with organizations across this country that are making sure, that there is, there are resources and there are investments in those communities so that that actually stops the next tragedy. I think that’s an important one that we don’t often hear about. Another thing that we’re doing a lot more, we’re working with our Everytown law, is to make sure that we are holding the industry accountable for their part in this crisis. They make over $9 billion a year, the gun industry. on, you know, in the crisis of gun violence in this country. And one thing we saw, for instance, is with Glock. That is a handgun that easily could be converted, and we talked about the do-it-yourself, machine guns and conversion, pistols, and this is one in particular, that we have been really watching, and I think, you know, more to come, and we can get some backgrounder from Leah on this to you, Jen, but they have made some moves to kind of redesign, their firearm, because all you needed is a little plastic switch that you could get under 20 bucks, pop it in, and now you have, effectively, a weapon that’s like a machine gun.
And so even looking at the industry, ways that they can be moving towards safety and not more devastation. So there’s all kinds of ways to kind of approach this. Secure storage, I talked about, making sure in schools, Be Smart, that’s a program that we have, making sure that we’re getting information out to parents and school districts and health departments so they understand what it means when you’re a responsible gun owner to securely, have your firearm put away so it doesn’t… impact folks, and I keep talking about secure storage because It is just one of those things that feels so basic, but it saves so many lives.
Jen Rubin
Absolutely, absolutely. And folks, we say it all the time, here at The Contrarian, because we really believe it. Don’t just be depressed. Here is something you can do. You can join Moms Demand Action. How many chapters do you have around the country?
Angela
Oh my goodness, we’re in all 50 states, plus the District of Columbia, where I am, so we are everywhere.
Jen Rubin
Absolutely. So, you can do something, and when you’re doing something, and you have a sense of agency. you will feel so much better, and you will be helping. So it is a phenomenal organization, and it’s hard to believe, Angela, that you’ve only been in business 13 years, because you have made… it is the single most successful grassroots advocacy organization, and it has saved so many lives, and it can save so many lives. So, folks, if you’re depressed, if you’re upset, that means you’re a human being, that’s a good thing. But then go do something. Join a group. give your time, give your money, and Angela, thank you, as always. You help us make sense of, this insane world in which we live. We’ll look forward to having you back in the new year, and I hope you’re holiday season is lovely and warm, and we especially like those pets, and by the way, send pictures of the pets around the holidays. We are still showing them. So, thanks so much, Angela, it was great seeing you.
Angela
Thank you, Jen. Thanks for having me. Have a great holiday.
